Removal of Constitution’s section 81 under threat
(CNS): Governor Martyn Roper has said that what happened in the Legislative Assembly over the Domestic Partnership Law has put the proposed removal of his reserved powers from the Constitution under threat. This was part of a package that government and opposition members had negotiated to modernize the document, but Premier Alden had warned that this could be off the table if legislators failed to uphold the rule of law over LGBT+ rights.
“There is clearly a need for reflection over section 81 because of the situation that has arisen,” Roper said in response to a question submitted to CrossTalk by CNS on Friday. The governor was a guest on Rooster’s phone-in morning show when he revealed that this part of the package was under threat.
He said that the UK had been impressed by Cayman’s ability to speak with one voice in those negotiations and was pleased with the proposed package that emerged. “It was a good package and recognised Cayman’s responsibility for domestic affairs,” he said, adding that in general the UK wanted that to proceed.
But Britain is now rethinking the removal of section 81, which enables the governor to make laws directly for the Cayman Islands when the LA fails to do so and the UK feels that it is necessary. That section is rarely used and the FCO is not comfortable using it, not least because of the spectre of colonialism. However, the refusal of the opposition and some government members to uphold the rule of law means that the UK may want to hold onto that reserved power.
“When you have a Legislative Assembly which will not comply with the rule of law, then that is bound to give pause for reflection,” the governor said. “I can’t say what will happen on section 81 today — that decision has not been taken — but clearly there will have to be reflection on that one matter.”
In his speech to the LA introducing the Domestic Partnership Bill, Premier Alden McLaughlin had warned that the UK’s agreement to the removal of this section would be under threat if legislators did not pass the bill. He said that considerable effort had been invested by both government and the opposition in negotiating the constitutional amendments, which represented a step forward. He said it showed the UK saw Cayman’s maturity as a democracy and the need for more control over its own affairs.
“If we now refuse to act when obligated to do so by the Courts, we would be demonstrating not political maturity but adolescent irresponsibility,” he warned. “It would be hard in such circumstances to make the case to the UK that they should press ahead with the constitutional changes we have fought for and which were supported on all sides of this House.”
He added, “No one on the UK side has yet threatened us with withdrawal of the proposed changes. There is no quid pro quo at play here. I am just realistic enough to recognise the risk.”
Enough of this paternalism from UK!Time we stood up and declared our independence!
Independence is a relative term. We give birth to children, nurture them, educate them, teach them by example, support and assist them until after 20+ years they are prepared to go out into the world on their own.
Does Cayman’s response to same sex marriage remind you of anything other than a petulant 3-year-old kicking up a fuss after being told it’s time to go to bed?
The deal is pretty clear, The UK doesn’t make you pay any taxes and mostly leaves you to do what you do. In exchange, you 1) don’t embarrass them on human rights issues, 2) don’t embarrass them with drugs and money laundering, and 3) respect property rights. For some reason you have trouble with all three things you need to do. That is why the FCO has to step in from time to time and pull you out of the latest ditch you drove into.
Listen, we all understand the deal. The problem with the deal is that individual consciences are not subject to the Constitution. Some Caymanians having beliefs that cannot be made policy or law because it would be illegal doesn’t stop those people from having those beliefs. It doesn’t stop them from pressuring their MLAs, who then have a choice between legally negligent servitude and political suicide? Which would you choose? The people holding these homophobic views can vote. So who is the “you” that has trouble with the “three things”? Cayman? Cayman is made up of people, with free wills and minds. Things will evolve here as they will. The UK can ‘step in’ if it wants. Big deal. We didn’t drive into a ditch – a Caymanian wants to do something many Caymanians don’t want her to be able to do – marry another woman. It’s more like she crashed her car into Cayman deliberately and the FCO has decided we must pay for the repairs because we placed an unlawful obstacle in her way. That unlawful obstacle being the deeply, passionately held views of, possibly, a plurality of the local electorate. How did English voters like the UK signing up to whatever was forced upon it, without meaningful democratic redress? It kind of is what it is, don’t you think? Sure we could go independent, like the UK left the EU, so we can stand alone on our little island and proclaim our stubborn views, but we’re smart enough not to do that. So we grumble and we move on. You give us too little credit; 200 people attended a protest against this. The rest of us think the UK is doing its job.
We do not need to remove section 81 we simply need to remove this glory seeking Turnip called Alden Mclaughlin and his corrupt council of government mindless officials, judiciary enablers, political lodge cronies who are completely F#@&%&#Up Cayman every single day they remain in power!As for this Emergency Bulb Governor and his flat rate UK plan for Cayman it soon will unravel, just like their foreign propped up economy is now collapsing and cannot afford for Cayman to have control of its economic pillar for fear it not pay its dues$$$ to the realm. Yes Cayman we are far more important now than we have ever been led to believe.
Pay it’s dues to the realm? What dues exactly? We pay for the governor to sit here and mind the store, and every now and then for the Royals to pay a visit. Not sure what else we pay the UK.
You most important Cuban can’t be a Cuban , you are nothing but a charlatan who does not understand politics and for that matter Cubans. 90%of Cubans in this land know what Cuba is all about and that same percentage will not in their wildest dream want to return home to the present circumstances of that Country. As for your most important status boy/ girl go sit down. We the real Cubans in cayman know where it’s at. Entiendes pendejo.
Has anyone thought it strange that the UK has no Constitution but Cayman does?
This certainly shows more political maturity for Cayman than it does for the UK.
Now that they are leaving the UK, will they actually implement a constitution and if so how will this affect us?
Food for thought!
Have you thought it strange what a ridiculous comment this is?
Amen, do as we say and not as we do.
Why do we even need a Constitution? Sound like it does more to hurt us that help us..Is it a requirement of the UK that Cayman must have a constitution?
Good Question? Hang on to your seats, get the popcorn ready and buckle up..You ain’t seen anything yet!!
Cayman is in for a good beat down as soon as Brexit is finalized. Better start planning now..
Not really and no need. The UK had a preliminary Bill of Rights dating back to Magna Carta in 1215. Then, further rights were guaranteed under the Bill of Rights in 1689.
Forgive me, the UK is a little more sophisticated and has far more ‘political maturity’ than Cayman – you only have to look at the quality of the speaking in the perspective Parliaments.
When BJ tried to prorogue Parliament in 2019, this was challenged in the Supreme Court and ruled unlawful.
Give us a break!!!!
We need to understand that UK is not looking out for us. The UK is leaving the European Union. Why? Because they are not happy living under the European Union rules.
These are the same hypocritical XXXXX that tell us that we should abide by the rule of law when the refuse to even abide by their own rules.
What is even more amazing is that at the the same time that they are removing themselves from the European Union, they are saying that we must conform to the rules of the European Union.
As far as Section 81. Forget it, precedent has been set.. it is not going to happen. Promises are a comfort to a fool..The UK would never give up the whip that they use to beat us when they feel we have stepped out of line. In their minds, we are not and will never be mature enough to make decision for ourselves.
But then again as the Governor says, life will go on as usual. NOT!!!
You need to understand that there are only 30,000 Caymanians in the world. We wouldn’t fill up half a football stadium in the UK and yet so many old and self important caymanian clowns think the world revolves around Cayman. Get a grip on our actual place in the modern world in 2020. Cayman is tiny. Small. So small all of the citizens, men, women and children would not fill half an average football stadium (see above). Work towards a solution vs your own ego. This whole domestic partnership issue is so incredibly backward ass. Because of 200 self righteous insecure religious bigots, Cayman has been thrust onto the global stage for the stupidest and most backward selfish reasons. The UK does not want to have to deal with us but when we behave so stupidly and blatantly break international law they are forced to step in. International law. They want us to succeed on our own but when we clearly unequivocally demonstrate we are unable to act maturely their hand is forced. FFS – the UK does not want to get involved unless they’re forced. Just re-read Ropers DP statement. SMH.
Dummy, if you don’t know the difference between the EU and ECHR then you are too stupid and too poorly educated to have anything to contribute. Get back to watching Fox.
This really shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone with half a brain.
Our moronic leaders need to understand that blatant and persistent a la carte refusal of sections in the constitution will eventually lead to it’s removal. The road to independence will never be paved whilst this juvenile attitude to self governance prevails.
Count your blessings people. Tomorrow is not guaranteed. Next direct hit hurricane, an earthquake, the Dump fire, market crash and or who knows what else could bring you to your knees.
LGBT issues then would be last thing on your mind.
The crown needs to have the final say so that local corruption does not endanger property rights. If the crown takes themselves out of the picture, Cayman will no longer be seen as a safe investment. It would then be similar in risk profile to Honduras.
If it means you won’t be here many of us will be happy! Many of us are fine with simpler lifestyles. We are accustomed to making do with less and not imposing our will on others.
so back to sea for 10 months of the year for the men. Meat only on Christmas and Easter, little money
the good old days
Section 81 is the adhesive that has allowed us to become the financial hub we are, and in more recent times, to borrow at a discount. Social and civil reckonings are global mega themes that are not going away. Environmental will be added to that list quickly should the Democrats win the USA election. We need to leave section 81 exactly where it is. Voters need to propel changes in who is eligible to run, the party registration requirements, the standard of public accounting disclosure, and required audits of processes and controls before the next election and they will need Gov Roper’s help with that.
Garbage. If Sec 81 was so vital then the UK would not have agreed to its removal as they recently did.
Section 125 is the key catch all that displays the full power and authority of the UK. The only adhesive you require us the one that people us to stick to speaking about what they actually know.
The UK does not actually need sections 81 or 125. The legal instrument that the UK uses to give us a Constitution is the same one they use to change it. The UK will always have unlimited power over us, until they give it up. They could take away our Constitution tomorrow. The only reason they put these things in our Constitution is to prevent us from challenging their interferences in the UK courts because the Constitution is technically a piece of UK law. The challenges still wouldn’t get anywhere even without 81 and 125.
So you’re against the environment?
Section 81 should absolutely NOT be removed. The bigots in the Assembly proved, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Cayman is not ready for full responsibility in governing. When the Court of Appeal explicitly directed the government to provide domestic partnerships — the bigots refused. In other words, they gave the finger to rule of law. Therefore, to the UK: Please retain your power because Cayman is obviously not adult enough to put rule of law above religious extremism.
Some would say that what we are witnessing is modern day colonialism with all of its deception, false promises and fake platitudes. Some would say that the governor is exhibiting dictatorial tendencies and that his lack of leadership skills has made a bad situation worse. Time will tell if those things are true or not. What we do know is that this governor has already made his mark on the Cayman Islands and that he will go down in history as one of the best or one of the worst governor’s the Cayman Islands has ever seen.
I am pretty sure that anyone with an education in Cayman knows the Governor has done the right thing.
Well, private school education….
Some would say you’re an idiot.
https://www.un.org/dppa/decolonization/en
When does the UK decide it will remove section 81 and ful fill its UN obligations.
So many of the UN conventions fall to the side in the Cayman Islands.
I’m just waiting for the next shoe to drop. In a very short amount of time, if our position reflects UK immigration policies., immigration for families both straight and gay will be decided by means. So if your poor, marrying and importing going to go away rights to family rights for the rich only.
Marriage was always meant for the rich., as a way to preserve wealth not what it has been turned into now., an immigration, benefits mechanism that is disconnected from all sanity, they will need to make the changes ASAP
I was really amazed at Mla Alva Suckoo and Leader of the Opposition, Mla Arden McLean’s reasons for not voting for the DPL. They said on “For The Record, With Orrett Conor”, they did not oppose the DPL, but they voted against the Bill, because the bill that was brought to the house was flawed. Apparently they could not move motions during the process to request or suggest the necessary amendments that would have addressed those flaws. Incredible, but sad, to think these two guys might be Cabinet Ministers this timne next year. It is time to ask “Who Should I Vote for in the next election?”
And of course Orrett Connor would never challenge them to defend or explain their duplicitious nonsense. I would say why I thought this was the case but CNS probably would not publish it.
Did Orrett Connor, as the the anchor in the show, challenge them to explain their views, as an anchor in any other country would have done?
Of course not, 6:42. He does not see that as his role. He is a flaccid chat show host not a real anchor or interviewer. Besides, he wants to remain pals with the more radical MLAs, particularly when it comes to anti expat/English stuff, as he has these views himself. Ever noticed who his favorite guests are?
Removal of section 81 would not prevent the UK from passing for the Cayman Islands. The “order in council” provision would remain and that was most recently used to require public registry of beneficial owners.
I believe Laws should exist for everyone and, in this particular case, apply whether or not you are gay or straight. Come to think of it, Common-law relationships between a man and women and their rights are not protected under the Marriage Law so a form of pre-nup is recommended prior to living together. We want to grow but not where it counts the most, acceptance of all good people.
Arden Mclean for Premier…not!!!
Section 81 was never going to be removed. That promise was made to comfort a fool.
It would be silly of someone to think that we could continue to be a UK territory without the UK having some ability to step in when they wanted to.
If section 81 is removed the UK Parliament or the Privy Council would still retain authority to legislate for the Cayman Islands. Its call “order in council” and was mostly recently used to require public registry of beneficial owners.
Correct. That is provided for under section 125. These half term law students are on here muddying the waters with nonsense.
Or needed to.
As a tenth generation Caymanian I say let Section 81 remain for as long as we are an Overseas Territory.
1991, the UK abolished the death penalty in the Cayman Islands because we refused to do it ourselves. Never mind the fact that we never had the balls to carry out such a grisly act ourselves. But the christian conservatives of the day who believed in the biblical eye for an eye were happy to have someone sent to Jamaica to be hanged. Just like they now need a Jamaican “helper” to wash their dirty underwear as they have somehow forgotten how to do that as well.
2000 the UK government declared that homosexuality was not a crime in the Cayman Islands because we didn’t have the balls, or the consent of the churches, to do that either. I doubt very much that there was an increase in homosexual desires after the law was changed.
2020 the UK government has to pass a law to give “family” rights to same sex couples because once again the same bigots and church charlatans are happy to vote against extending human rights, that are available worldwide, to the people of the Cayman Islands. Of course, the reason to deny this is because we’re special. Special my ass.
I hope that this doesn’t give the nefarious nine cause to think that with the support of their church constituents maybe they could introduce the death penalty for anyone seeking to marry someone of the same sex.
3.31 says:
“I doubt very much that there was an increase in homosexual desires after the law was changed”.
My query to that statement – quoting the great sage of Bodden Town: “Was their a full moon”?
You missed out 1835 when the Royal Navy had to be sent to free slaves after Cayman refused to do so.
10th generation ??? What are you ? A mosquito?
Nah, just the result of decades of children having children.
It could be more than ten, but I only have the 1802 census to work with.
https://caymannature.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/1802-corbet-cayman-census.pdf
I’m directly descended from many of those white families, families of colour, and probably free negroes and slaves as well.
Very interesting document. Doesn’t mention my male-line ancestor of the time because he and others were busy settling Cayman Brac. An important omission from this letter – looks like information the writer failed to get. Nevertheless, several ancestors of mine are in this document too.
Caymans crocodile, blue iguana or green turtle.
10th Generation…really? boy you can hear some shit! Was your 10th generation father Moses? Geesh people stop coming up with this foolishness. Say something more believable so that you have some sort of credibility when people read your posts..
Do you have any idea what a generation is dumbass?
Do you not know that there were people living in the Cayman Islands in the 1700’s with the last name Bodden, Ebanks, McCoy, Rivers, Parsons, Bush, Watler, Nixon, Scott etc?
The post was exactly spot on and credible. I don’t care if someone is labeled as a first generation piece of driftwood or thinks their granny waved hello to Columbus. The content is accurate.
well of course it is, our government has shown that they wont to their jobs and now they expect the UK to give them greater responsibility?
This entire thing in asinine.
Oh please tell me another lie. Every single Time the constitution has been discussed with the UK 2 items have headlined the discussion. 1. Gay rights and 2. More autonomy for Cayman including the removal of the ability for the UK to legislate for us. The UK is well aware that the removal of section 81 would prevent them from legislating for us ever again on any topic. So they obviously thought about how that would impact their ability to get us to align with their policy positions on any topic, including gay marriage. Further, in this latest round of talks the UK was well aware of the majority position of Cayman in relation to gay marriage. So what are we to believe now, that somehow the UK didn’t realize all of this until after the vote was taken in the LA and now the section is under threat?! The only way that they can take this position now is if they had assurances that it would pass and therefore nothing to worry about. Finally, their position is non-sensical. They have breached the final divide so really what other topics would they feel the need to impose direct rule on after this? Perhaps , I’m wrong. Perhaps they haven’t breached the final divide and that is tied to the number 3 and number 4 items that have been discussed every time the UK and the Cayman Islands have negotiated on constitutional matters. Number 3 – that English citizens should be allowed automatically to run for elected office and vote in our elections. Number 4 – taxation.
Oh cut the pathetic crap! You are trying to wind people up. Do you not have the ability to accept the consequences for a breach of the law?! Suck it up!
Hateful bunch of Christians, aren’t ya?
Some, and perhaps many, of Cayman’s identifying “Christians” are abnormally obsessed with ghouling/judging who they determine (a) does or (b) does not belong, and who, as they prefer, should be advanced via their favour, or obstructed for perceived affront. This is the central crux of our entrenched corruption. This is the figurative Lodge of belongers, and non-belongers. It’s also, in an ironic plot-twist, hell-assured interference!
You have no idea, do you?!
What the governor need to do is to left cayman how he found it and try to work with the government to solve the economic crisis that is killing poor people who don’t have a job, and cannot make end meet that’s what he need to do, they are getting this big salary to make a mess of the cayman island while poor people dying of hunger and can’t pay their bills, thanks very much
1: you voted for the people who should do that, it’s not the governors place.
2: if you can’t see why education is the main problem with the jobless Caymanians I would like you to reread your comment.
That’s not his role here at all.
What you need to do is go back to school and learn how to write.
Our “Mommy and Daddy” (UK) may let use use our “easy-bake-oven”(Constitution/Laws) to learn how to cook (self-govern)… But they will watch and supervise to prevent use from getting “Burned” as we learn how to cook.
Our play cooking is not going so well. We are proving that we are not ready for an adult stove yet.
Great one!
Colonialism represents oppression and slavery and its continues in this island. how can there be any talk of equality and democracy with that present? Let our people decide thier future!
Why should the Jamaican people be allowed to decide our future? The Caymanian people are loyal subjects of the crown, and decided that ourselves when the Jamaican people decided otherwise. Look what happened.
Do not run here to escape the consequences, and the ferment the same ignorance that got Jamaica (and Trinidad) and many other Islands, where they are.
Domestic “helpers” represent slavery and oppression in the the Cayman Islands.
Over generalisation. When we employed a domestic helper prior to 2004 we were already paying CI$ 10 per hour plus room and board, health insurance, pension and paid vacation.
For many domestic helpers employment in Cayman is an opportunity to repatriate US dollars to Jamaica or Philippines to improve their families’ quality of life. My Caymanian mother was a domestic helper in Cayman and Florida in the sixties and this was a start for her to improve her lot in life and to educate her children. I have had three Jamaican helpers over the past 20 years who have helped me tremendously with raising my children. I have treated them with dignity and respect including paying for every hour of overtime per the law. The issue we have is with the abusive employers who take advantage of domestic helpers.
Well said. Respect.
Not one to encourage slave Labour, but if the pay is that bad, why don’t you just haul your ass back, where you would disappear and life would be better. If it was good where you came from, then fly back and enjoy life.
Cayman could have left the UK when Jamaica did. Nobody is forcing Cayman to be part of the UK.
No surprise who wrote this comment.
Of course, don’t all children get to decide what they are going to eat for supper and what time to go to bed?
We are not children..
Our recent tantrums unfortunately confirm otherwise. Grow up. When we have, we won’t be children anymore. We have at least two generations to go, not helped by crap education and lack of basic principles to guide us.
Then stop acting like it.
The vote against the Domestic partnership Bill was a vote against equality and democracy as well as being contrary to Cayman’s own constitution.
They have and we want equality.
People can’t vote responsibly and our leaders can’t rule responsibly. What kind of future are you expecting to come out of this decrepit situation?
I agree, 12:10, that oppression and slavery involving Jamaicans, Filipinos, Honduranians, Indians and others at the hands of some greedy ruthless Caymanians continues in these islands. And of course by far the majority of the taxpayers do not have the power of the vote. “How can there be any talk of equality and democracy with that present?” Physician, heal thyself!
What oppression and slavery? They choose to move to the Cayman Islands for economic reasons. They appear like they live in poverty because they send every penny home. When they are ready to go home after they have built mansions and businesses Cayman is left in shambles. They are not slaves, they are not living in poverty. They are choosing to spend as little as possible to save for their future. I don’t understand why other countries citizens need to matter more than the citizens of Cayman.
Its Honduran…when will you all get it right..
12.10pm The only slavery and oppression I have seen here in 50 years of residence involves mostly Caymanian employers taking advantage of their poor West Indian and Central American neighbours on work permits.
Do you mean that hateful and oppressive nature of Caymanians that made us famous for “social harmony”? The same thing that attracted people like you to come here for 2 years then stay for 50?
It’s your same attitude that has destroyed social harmony in Cayman.
I hope you’re happy with your contribution.
Well try working in the financial industry where Caymanians are abused, ridiculed and oppressed on a daily basis by prejudiced ex pats from many nations, who now have PR or Status and lots of buddies in high positions who act the same way. And no, I am not Caymanian but I cannot stand to see how a lot of ex pats here behave towards Caymanians.
12.10 You do understand the irony of what you have written? Equality? The very reason that S81 is being used is because we can’t be trusted and have refused to recognise equality for the LGBT community. So to that end the big people have had to come in and fix it for us. What a damning indictment of a society.
No. It is an indictment of the 9 MLAs who voted against it. I am a multigenerational Caymanian and my MLA voted for the bill and I voted for my MLA in the last election.
Because our people have proven incapable of doing the right thing over and over again. Pull your head out of the sand
So is independence is the solution? That in my view would be a disaster for my home of 40 + years
Why? Is not your land of birth a sovereign nation.
Why, Ivan?
The British had to send the Royal Navy to Cayman, as Cayman refused to relinquish their slaves after emancipation.
So the Colonialist represented freedom and Caymanians wanted slavery, which does make your comment ironic
Yes I hope that the bill never passes .I wish that our governor would leave things how he found it .no marriage between woman and woman.mr roper as the new governor of this country must respect our community.
When the DP Law is implemented, there still will be no marriage between woman and woman, as you put it. Unless/until the Privy Council rule otherwise (which hopefully it will). But it won’t be the governor who legalises it.
No one is talking about marriage here. For now. It’s up to Privy Council. And the bill is passing. Unless you are LGBTQ it’s not any of your business. Some of you out there just can’t accept a good thing. Equality is beautiful.
I say no marriage for people who can’t use periods correctly.
So you want to bring on direct rule then?
Is there a section in the law that specifies how many off-spring each couple are allowed. That should not be left out.
The fallacy in this rule of law argument is that the courts don’t have the power to order the MLAs to vote a certain way, and haven’t actually ordered any such thing, notwithstanding the ECHR. The LA has not violated any actual rule of law at all (you can argue they violated your interpretation of the ECHR or the constitutional order but that’s another question). If the court or the governor want to impose a rule on Cayman, as the governor has just done, then that is within their various powers and consistent with the rule of law. It doesn’t mean the MLAs acted unlawfully and it doesn’t look much like democracy, either, since they are all creatures of the FCO ultimately. There is disquiet about this even in the UK where Parliament may or may not still be the supreme power.
Let us know your legal qualifications and experience to give us your learned opinion. Then we will know whether your opinion is worth even reading.
My credentials don’t really matter. These things don’t get decided according to the number of degrees you have or your tenure at the bar.
Spot on!
Any mature democracy is based upon the premise that decisions of the court are to be followed. That is in essence the underlying principle behind the concept of the rule of law that no person, no authority, no power is above the law. The day a society loses respect for their laws including decisions of their courts, it is the day anarchy starts to unfold.
Interesting in that the UK has no written constitution but we have one. So, what the lawmakers are trying to say is that they are supreme and that as the principle of democracy must stand. This is a common wealth country and not the Repbulic Do Brazil.
Mate, even the almighty British Parliament bows to decisions of the courts notwithstanding as you stated that they do not have to because there is no codified constitution in the UK.
Have you been in Cayman long? Have you not seen the blatant disregard for many laws by many govt officials including Police, MLA’s, Speakers, Customs, Immigration, etc. etc. Many people are already suffering one way or another – Caymanians and expats because of this.
And to that list you should add now the law makers giving the finger to the court -sad and tragic, the consequences of what they have done will be felt for generations, the UK retaining section 81 is just the beginning.
God is good. Was a terrible idea to begin with.
Alden, You’re worst than an adolescent, You’re just an idiot that too much power has set you crazy! Kurt Tibbetts really made a huge mistake when he handed over power to you when he gave up the PPM leadership.Kut lm sure regrets that decision every day of his life.
He does work in mysterious ways.
Truly deviant really