Gay marriage here to stay, says bishop
Rt Rev Alan Wilson, Bishop of Buckinghamshire
(CNS): An Anglican bishop has pointed out that nothing bad happened in the UK after the introduction of same-sex marriage two years ago and that the Church of England is slowly accepting the concept. Delivering a keynote speech at the ‘Queering Paradigms’ conference on Sunday evening, the Rt Rev Alan Wilson used the Bible and the teachings of Christ to challenge the discrimination and fears held by many Christians about same-sex unions. He said that with around 1.4 billion people in the world now having access to gay marriage, the “toothpaste wasn’t going back in the tube”.
Rev. Wilson said it was merely a matter of time before the controversy surrounding gay and transgender unions would turn to acceptance everywhere, even in his church.
Professor Bee Scherer
The bishop was introduced by Bee Scherer, professor of religious studies and ethics at Canterbury Christ Church University, who is the founder of the conference, which is now in its seventh year. Speaking about the concept of ‘queer theory’, an academic area challenging traditional concepts of binary genders and other ideas around sexuality, he described it as a daring and rebellious form of thinking about who we are and assumptions about fixed gender.
Although the conference was an academic gathering, Wilson delivered a speech that went to the heart of prejudices surrounding same-sex unions. He challenged the idea that the church has to be against same-sex unions and pointed out that Jesus himself challenged many norms of the time, even the concept of family, which many believe is fundamental to Christianity.
Given the lack of reference in the Bible to same-sex relationships and none at all about women, he also suggested that the concept of a patriarchal family had more to do with culture and society than Christianity and maintained that prejudiced viewpoints had nothing to do with God.
“The whole idea that gender binary is part of Judaeo-Christian tradition is rubbish,” the Bishop said and pointed to the multiple challenges in the old testament and other Jewish religious texts to what people today think of as the normal family, from the story of Tamar to Solomon’s hundreds of wives.
He said that Jesus challenged the concept of family and that, historically, many things in the Bible were misinterpreted, pointing out the contradictions and hypocrisy surrounding what fundamentalists see as abominations. While Leviticus may condemn a man having sex with a man as he would with a woman, it also condemns the marriage to a deceased wife’s sister, which was until 1907 illegal. But, he said, no one in the church today gets worked up over the fact that a man can now lawfully marry his brother’s wife.
Wilson said that people who believe Christianity upholds the patriarchal family “don’t know the first thing about Jesus”, whom he described as a subversive who “deconstructs the family”.
Speaking at length about how nothing bad had happened in the UK after the introduction of same-sex marriage, he pointed to the increase in marriage across the board and noted that the highest number of gay unions were among women, not men. The birth rate had increased rather than fallen in recent years, he said, and, despite claims by some people that God was punishing the UK for legalising same-sex partnerships with floods, this did not seem to be the case.
The bishop told the audience he had decided to test the theory that God was using natural disasters, in particular floods, to tell us how we should live. He took a look at the places in Europe that have not suffered any such natural disasters because, if the punishment theory was right, they would be an indicator of the ideal community and how we should all be living.
He found that one of the few places that had never been cursed with such unfortunate natural disasters was, of all places, Ibiza, a Spanish island in the Mediterranean known for its hedonistic, booze-fueled party culture, heavy drug taking and promiscuity.
The bishop also used statistics and survey results to show the decline in opposition in the UK and the US to same-sex unions. He said the pattern was clear that as the law is passed, resistance fades, even among church congregations. He pointed out that the last areas of resistance tend to be among the over 55’s, making it apparent it is all a matter of time.
Although the conference attracted some local guests, it was mostly academics who took part. Despite a police presence as a result of concerns that there may be demonstrations, there were no disturbances at all over the two days of the conference.
However, there were no leaders from any of Cayman’s religious organisations in attendance to hear some of the reasoned arguments and well-researched presentations made by the numerous presenters from home and abroad.
Category: Local News
More than a year after the U.S. Supreme Court’s ruling on marriage, and despite recent statements from the campaign trail, the Catholic Church’s 2000-year-old teaching to the truth about what constitutes marriage remains unchanged and resolute.
As Catholics, we believe, all humans warrant dignity and deserve love and respect, and unjust discrimination is always wrong. Our understanding of marriage, however, is a matter of justice and fidelity to our Creator’s original design. Marriage is the only institution uniting one man and one woman with each other and with any child who comes from their union. Redefining marriage furthers no one’s rights, least of all those of children, who should not purposely be deprived of the right to be nurtured and loved by a mother and a father.
We call on Catholics and all those concerned for preserving this sacred union to unite in prayer, to live and speak out with compassion and charity about the true nature of marriage — the heart of family life.
Who am I to judge those outside the church who don’t know or don’t believe in Christ? They have no moral stick to guide them so anything and everything will be acceptable to them. Bible tells us to love our neighbour as we love ourselves but it didn’t say loving that person meant condoning them to sin. We should try to correct them lovingly and see the err of their ways. This includes not only gay people but all those heterosexuals who are fornicating and committing adultery yet claiming to know God.
I am disappointed by the bishop’s statements that “nothing bad happened in the UK after the introduction of same-sex marriage two years ago and that the Church of England is slowly accepting the concept.”. As a bishop I thought he was responsible for leading people the right way, not leading them astray. Instead his message seems to be that if you can’t beat them, just accept them and encourage them in their ways by facilitating them.
I have gay people in my family and I love them but I am still going to tell them their chosen lifestyle is wrong just as I tell my niece and nephews that shacking up with their boyfriend/girlfriend is wrong.
He talks about Christ preaching of love and acceptance,did he not correct the woman at the well? He loved her and accepted her but he still corrected her, told here to go and sin no more.
So no sir, I will not slowly accept the concept of gay marriage. It is wrong just like adultery and fornication, stealing, lying etcetera. Just because a majority seem to be embracing something makes it right.
Nicely said. I will not give up on you slowly accepting the concept of gay marriage.
As a deist, I too believe in a God of morals. I agree with everything you say. My “bible” is nature, conscience, and my commonsense. Obedience to God is simply living in harmony with the natural order. So I would in no wise approve of a homosexual lifestyle for the many who want to be by choice.
However from your comment, I can’t see eye-to-eye with you on the question of “shacking up” – you give cohabitation a bad name. But here is the simple logic: God gave you commonsense, and it would tell you that before you marry someone you ought to “know” that person – am I correct? And so … how in the world could you “know” a person if you don’t see how they live??? Or, would you marry someone who can’t sexually perform??? These are serious question… And here is where following ministers and priests have led people into unfortunate situations. I love many in the Church, but on this topic is where I must part from them. They put Church’s interpretation of the Bible over their god-given reason. That is not good.
Don’t get me wrong, religious books and ministers teach good lessons. But God didn’t make us to blindly follow … We are to learn and to lead. 🙂
A right proper pragmatist are you. With an eye towards science and experimentation. Good on you. Wink wink.
Well said sir/madam, and many thanks for taking the time to express your well reasoned convictions. I feel exactly the same way, and that includes your stance on living together before marriage. I believe God provides us with a template for successful living and we stray from it at our peril. One has only to look at the evidence in today’s “anything goes” societies, of which, Praise God, Cayman is not numbered with, unlike that of our visiting bishop.
how can anyone be right or anyone be wrong here when what we individually perceive is very different to any true reality. Eyes, ears, etc at first instance perceive a true reality but the problem is our mind from those images and sound creates a distorted perception/interpretation unique to each of us, – we may not necessarily be right, perception often being the greatest deception. At the end of the day there is no normal/abnormal, complete right or wrong to us, but there will always be different. Let go of your attachments and pushing of agendas and allow all of different people the opportunity of being able to just be.
Well said. Dhamma is always a breath of fresh air.
Anglican Church started by the brutal King Henry VIII who wanted to divorce when the Church at the time has always taught that marriage is binding for life. And the Bible that states “except it be for fornication” was inserted in the KJV version from the original text which really states “except it be unlawful” … meaning Jesus was referring to incest-marriages which were unlawful. Hence to Christ in no wise can two legit person married can ever get a divorce. What God has bind together, let NO MAN put asunder! But Henry that brutal King didn’t want to listen to the Pope, and beheaded his wives until he found the right one to carry his heir to the throne. History is clear: The FOUNDER of the Anglican Church came from a brutal animalistic king!
Hence, I am not surprise that the leaders of this church would go so far as to condone gay marriages … not one bit. :/
Unlike your bible that was written by God himself.
I am never impressed when someone says nothing didnt happen bad to us so it must be right. It must be okay with God. There are many who rob rape and do all kind of crimes and nothing happen. Pastor according to your theology it is okay.or right.You are in the wrong business,
16/6 12.53 am… you’re confusing me a little bit here …he didn’t say ‘nothing didnt happen’ (which is a double-negative and actually means that something ‘did’ happen) he said nothing bad happened meaning nothing did happen….but I think I know what were trying to say and I take your point.
It is true that the founder of the Anglican church was a cold blooded murderer, as were so many of the kings and queens before and after him, Catholic and then Protestant, which is why I get a chuckle at people who approach our present monarch with some kind of hushed (and really quite holy) reverence. She’s descended from a murderous crew of no good scoundrels – don’t you get? They murdered people to stay in power and to satiate their lusts etc. (How it all began with the tribal chiefs and the primitive religious conclusion that they must surely have been appointed by God is another story!)
I’m sure people in Cayman are religion fearing as well. Never know when some god fearing soul is gonna cleanse the evil from the land.
….and that’s a little scary. But prolly no gonna happen.
What is the Bible? The book people turn to, if they find science too hard.
I’d run a mile from getting involved in theological matters with a serving bishop, but there seems to be something a bit superficial about the bishop’s contention that as nothing “bad” has happened since the introduction of gay marriage in the U.K., this is somehow evidence of the practice not being contrary to the will of God. A response from a cleric would be most welcome. Thanks.
My goodness, who in the world could ever “dislike” such a post? Really brainless.
Does the law allow a transgender man who had had everything done except the operation done down there, to legally marry a woman? Would this be Gay marriage or would it be heterosexual marriage?
Even if he/she has had the operation done, can he then legally marry a lesbian woman because God made him a man?
Just curious as to how we should deal with that scenario, either through the teachings of the Bible or the dictates of the law………
Everyone needs to be mindful and respectful on this subject. If the people of the Cayman Islands do not want to accept same sex marriages, then people need to respect that. Cayman is a religious island and most of us are God fearing. You have come to find Cayman with its own beliefs, policies and ways of life and you cannot force your choices on the rest of us. We will not accept this change for our island and if you are not happy and feel that the Cayman lifestyle does not suit you then please feel free to move and go somewhere else. There are many other countries which have legalised same sex marriages.
I have nothing against the gays etc. Everyone is entitled to live their life the way that they choose too. What you choose to do with your time behind close doors and the privacy of your personal space is your business. Cayman has always had gay people it is nothing new. However, we will not change our laws to fit your lifestyle. Hopefully I speak for the majority of people who reside in these beautiful Cayman Islands. Cayman is one of a kind and we want to keep it that way!
Thank you very much for expressing what I am confident is the stance of the vast majority of the people of these islands. “If the people of the Cayman Islands do not want to accept same sex marriage, then people need to respect that” sums it up beautifully. (I hope the head of state’s representative and the FCO take careful note!)
But what if 51% do want to?
Well then it would become the will of the people, and democracy would prevail. But at the present time this, evidently (to any rational person) not the case. And that reality is vitally important to those of us who hold to the democratic process.
Speak for yourself.
How old school : “Speak for yourself” Jesus, my great grandfather said that! A response from somebody who evidently has no grasp of anything remotely approaching the reality here in Cayman. Are you a resident? Do you know any Caymanians? How long have you lived here? Can you point to the Cayman Islands on a map? Have you seen Cayman on a stamp? In the travel agent’s window, maybe? Get real, sportsfan, this is not a matter of “opinion” about what most Caymanians feel, it’s a matter of reality – like it or not. You must deal with reality at some point, so get your head out of that comfortable non-academic in-denial little hole you’ve stuck it in and get real. If you want to further your cause you must deal in the world as it is, not what you’d like it to be. Incidentally, I am undecided about this, okay? But please, deal with the real world, eh? (And don’t call me a rude name – Mother doesn’t like it and I get the blame!)
You sound so sure (and excited). How do you know the “reality” of how “most caymanians” feel?
Serious question
Listen, sportsfan, the last time I felt truly “excited” was when I changed gear in your country (the U.K.?) at 140 mph in an air-cooled 911. (Relax, punk, it was on an empty motorway.)
I know “the reality” because I’ve lived here for the past 37 years, married to a Caymanian lady, and been in a job that has put me in intimate contact with all things Caymanian, believe me.
You got any more questions?
The Cayman Islands are becoming a very unpleasant place to live. Increasing crime, corruption and hatred towards different thinking people.
Now some of you will say “go home”. I can’t, because this IS my home. I was born here.
It makes me sad.
I agree Cayman has an dramatic increase in crime and two of the main reasons for this is because our so-called government does not conduct adequate background checks on the people coming into this country and because the government has chosen to hide alot of the serious crimes from the public. No where else is this type of behaviour accepted from a government. Corruption, Corruption, Corruption. Alot of people know exactly what is going on. Therefore, we all need to speak up and speak out.
There is no room for hatred and violence but these emotions stem from the disservice that our government has done for us.
Everyone is open to share their opinion BUT everyone has to respect the opinion of the vast majority of the Caymanians that live in this country. We are not shutting out the gays etc, we just will not change our laws and beliefs to follow suit with the UK or anywhere else which have chosen to adopt these types of laws.
The good LORD above has blessed our beautiful Cayman Islands because of our religious beliefs – trust me.
If homesxuality is not a sin, then why didn’t God made another man as Adam’s companion in the garden of Eden? Can the bishop provide some clarification on this?
Can you?! Where did you hear about this Adam person? Did this God create a harlot for ‘Adam’ to pleasure when his partner was busy. Why are soooo many people seeking harlots. Was that in the playbook? So many questions.
Oh, was there anything about this Adam guy having a boat. I see lots of boats. (in people’s yards) Were there boats in that garden. Oh no. Don’t tell me…. boats are homosexual’s tools!! I wondered why they call them pleasure crafts and shirtless tan guys are asking me if I want to go “fishing”
Yikes!! I gotta get outta here! Thanks.
Do not listen to what the prophets are saying to you, they fill you with false hopes. They speak visions from their own minds and not from the mouth of the Lord.which of them have stood in the council of the Lord to see or hear his word? See the storm of the Lord will burst out in wrath, a whirlwind swirling down on the heads of the wicked. THe anger of the Lord will not turn back until he fully accomplishes the purpose of his heart. In days to come you will understand clearly. If they had stood in my council they would have proclaimed my words to my people and would have turned them from their evil ways. Can anyone hide in secret places so that I cannot see him? Do not I fill heaven and earth?
Because 2 men cannot conceive a child dingdong.
So what.
Wouldn’t there have been a lot of incest in those days if we are to believe this particular bible story. Adam and Eve, their children and then what? They have sex with each other. So is that right too? Should I go and have sex with my dad or my brother because Adam and his children did that. I am so confused!
Because the story is a creation myth. It did not happen. Genesis is a bronze age fairy story. Do you quake when you fly in fear about hitting the firmament?
There has always been a homosexual presence throughout history. If God had such an issue with it don’t you think he would have corrected it by now. Maybe it’s not God with the issue but small minded people who fail to acknowledge everyone should be treated equally. It saddens me to the core when I read comments like these from people who I am supposed to share a heritage with. May god have mercy on your souls because being filled with so much hatred must take a toll on a person.
He (God) did definitely correct it once with destroying the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah with fire and brimstone. The truth is God gave us humans the ability to make choices. No other creature can do that- cows will always eat grass, fish will always want to live underwater etc. Because of this choice, we decide how to like our lives whether that be according to His laws or not. If not in this life we will have to face those decisions and His judgment at death. Nothing escapes God and we all will have to face Him one day. So He leaves people to make their choice about sexuality even if that is to their doom.
I doubt Alan could provide any form of clarification that could be remotely intelligible to the people of Cayman. He’s from a different society and culture.The wonder is that he doesn’t appear to be cognizant (or should I say “respectful”?) of this. Which is slightly disappointing.
As a point of clarification, which Bible are you people quoting? The one with the talking snake in the apple tree?
Er, hang on a minute, I’ll check me bookshelf ……………. yes ……that’s the one! Next question.
Why do planes not crash into the firmament when it lies at the highest point of building heights in Bronze Age Mesopotamia?
““The whole idea that gender binary is part of Judaeo-Christian tradition is rubbish,” the Bishop said…”
I guess that Bishop Wilson hasn’t bothered to read much by anyone he disagrees with … including the Archbishops’ Council of the Church of England!! For instance “Some Issues of human sexuality”, which says that in the Judeo-Christian Scriptures “… the existence of humankind as male and female is seen as something that is created by God himself, and is, therefore, good.”
He is an Anglican
Indeed. Rather puzzled by what Bishop Wilson had to say in view of the official CofE line you quoted. It might be a good idea for him to justify his views with reference to the official beliefs of his own church, perhaps?
Romans 1: 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
Here we finally get into perhaps the most plausible potential condemnation of homosexuality in the bible. And yet, even these words are subject to much scholarly debate about their intended meaning, their appropriate translations, and their relevance today. Should Cayman base its laws on biblical passages which reasonable minds can and do interpret differently?
Peter Gomes and John Shelby Spong suggest that the Paul’s argument is focused not on condemning the practice of homosexuality, but on condemning the practice of idolatry (Romans 1:25), which Paul believes gave rise to homosexuality (Romans 1:26). Of course, Paul did not have access to the mountains of scientific data that strongly suggest that homosexuality is biological, and, accordingly, could not be a punishment for conscious acts.
Jung & Smith suggests that, while Paul may have believed that same-sex desires and activities were dishonorable and unnatural, the text does not address committed and loving unions with bonds akin to marriage among same-sex partners, since there was no such notion at the time. In Romans 1:31, Paul states that “they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy,” when, of course, we understand that committed homosexual relationships can and do have all of these things.
Daniel Helminiac suggests that the Greek “para physin” in Paul’s letter has been incorrectly translated as “unnatural” instead of its more common meaning at the time of “unusual”. Robin Scroggs suggests that the passage was intended to condemn only the Greek practice of pederasty (sexual acts by men against boys).
And, of course, Romans 1:30 tells us of the other consequences of idolotry — slanderers; God-haters; insolent, arrogant and boastful people; individuals that disobey their parents — all of whom we tolerate in Caymanian society and do not deny equal protections under the laws.
“….no one in the church today gets worked up over the fact that a man can now lawfully marry his sister’s wife”
CNS, pick up on line 3, your editor is calling.
CNS: Oops! Well spotted.
I am now of the opinion that the heated debate over gay marriage, in the global sense, is not really from an anti-homosexual / homophobic perspective but on a pro-faith perspective – and therefore coincidentally from an anti-religion perspective as well.
I also believe that many gays that are adamant on pushing the issue are primarily motivated by some sort of twisted “get back” or revenge against the dogma, culture, faith and traditions by which they have felt judged and condemned from the moment of their sexual awareness. Case in point, the individuals leading the charge here locally. Social media and dating / swinging smartphone apps speak to a lifestyle not in keeping with the tenets of marriage in the Christian or traditional sense.
(*Btw, we tend to find MANY atheists on the side of the LGBT community in this fight and that alone speaks volumes in that regard.)
Furthermore, when one considers the alternative legal options available to the homosexual community, that could actually secure their rights to a superior level when compared to traditional marriage, the debacle becomes even more perplexing.
Also, it is quite a stretch to manipulate or custom fit the teachings of the Bible to align with the concept of homosexual unions to the extent of marriage. I mean, have we read the Bible?!
Anyway, if everyone has the right to freedoms and beliefs then neither side has license to point fingers at the other.
There is a clear middle lane waiting to be taken but for some strange reason people are hellbent on being disruptive and revolutionary – creating great turbulence and fractures in otherwise relatively peaceful communities and institutions.
Just my 2 cents.
– Who
*It is also quite interesting how the Anglo-European powers have spent the last 500 years terrorising, genociding’, and enslaving entire continents and countries like Jamaica and the Cayman Islands into adopting and adhering their forced religion – only to now turn around and condemn them as backwards and immoral for essentially holding fast to what historically has been their literal lifeline … from the wrath of said Anglo-European barbarism.
smh
So you feel strongly both ways…
I think he means he goes both ways.
I know they even forced emancipation on Jamaica and Cayman. Disgusting colonialists
You can believe a sudden wave of basic human decency after 400 years led to emancipation if you want. However history and facts speak to bloody regional slave revolts and a fall in economic feasibility.
However, hope we can avoid the cheap shots tonight.
Wow.. you are such an idiot. Gay people are pushing or their human rights just to get back at religion. Good one.
-Isme
“Wow… you are such an idiot” (also such terms as “jerk”/”fool” etc) – my goodness, this poster’s question – a valid one, in my opinion – is really debilitated by the introductory slur, surely? Please, let’s leave the schoolyard language out of an adult exchange of views on this and other topics.Thank you.
Does the leaving out of schoolyard language also apply to those calling gay people “abominations”, “sinful”, “unnatural” and the list goes on?
-Isme
“when one considers the alternative legal options available to the homosexual community” – go on then, educate us as to what those options are in Cayman?
I have asked you time and again to think bigger. Are you not listening. Honestly, sometimes I feel like I’m talking to a brick wall erected by the Anglo European (white devils) powers!!!!!
Keep asking, mate, for all of our sake’s!
There is context within everything I have said. One just has to remove emotions in order to see it.
– Who
BIGGER.
Let me tell you, being an Anglo-European barbarian is fantastic.
People bashing Christianity but go to church to get married by a pastor lol make up your mind. It’s either you believe the book or you don’t…..
I don’t and I didn’t. Who are you talking about?
Why do the English always use the word Mate , even in the restaurants , I aint your mate mate , never met you , don’t like you , don’t call me mate fool , call me sir , got that mate ?
Got it bro
No idea. Must be historical/cultural. It’s not personal, you understand. (You appear pretty steamed up, and I’d guess it’s not just about something as trivial as being called “mate”.)
We call you “mate” because calling you “an angry tool” might be a bit rude. But accurate.
Okay mates , sorry to get your nickers in a twist .
Get a life Sir!
Well I always get called “sir” in the restaurants I go to in England, so maybe if you feel so strongly about it you should be a bit more selective in your choice of eatery, perhaps? Just a suggestion, chief.
Think you are confusing Aussies with the English. Australians use mate as a convivial greeting, despising sir as stuffy, formal as classist. English use mate with a) people they don’t like, or whose names they can’t remember.
Had an inkling the good old Aussies would get into the scrum at some point. Thanks, and God bless yer, mate. (Good pal of mine at college in the U.K. was from Tasmania – what a character, hilarious!)
What a blow, and just as I thought we were finding some kind of common ground to build a solid relationship. I’m very upset, and so is Mother because of the bad name you called me, you awful, awful person, you.
I am English and I never use “mate.” Some people do, some people don’t, there’s no need to get so vexed about it! It’s cultural difference, if we were all the same the world would be a boring place. People in the Caribbean say bro and bobo but I don’t get upset about it. Maybe if you broadened your horizons you would find there were a lot of language differences throughout the English speaking nations.
Excellent points – and it’s true, variety really is the spice of life!
There will come a day when this construct that we live in will be dissolved back into the ether from whence it came. On that day opinions will cease to carry the weight of their adherents.
Only truth will be left standing together with those who have cherished it.
Prolly true. but who know what truth is?
John 14:6 “I am the way, the truth and the life”
– Jesus
That is being a bit greedy, being the way and the truth and the life. Share it out a bit more John.
Remind me whenJohn 14:16 was written
Just after quarter past two in the afternoon. Hence the name.
Is that form Lord of the Rings?
I fear for our country.. I really do. Yes, we are supposed to love everyone, and not judge anyone. It is not our job to judge, but it is God who will judge on judgement day. We are supposed to love each other, and help each other grow spiritually.
I have no right to judge anyone’s’ choices, my Lord above knows that I have my own sins to worry about. But are we not supposed to be a God fearing country? As a young caymanian, I think it’s sad that our moral values as a community are being tossed out the window. As Christians, we are supposed to help people be the best they can be, not bend the rules of the bible to our liking.
Leviticus 18:22: ” Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.” 3. Leviticus 20:13: “If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
Some people say we are not to follow what is written in the Old Testament, but please remember that bible even speaks about homosexuality in the New Testament.
Let’s bring God in to our hearts, and spread his word and love each other.
Please see my response to Lynn below and consider the strength of your argument.
“we are supposed to love everyone, and not judge anyone” I think it’s good that you can see that. As for the rest, what you believe, the Bible etc. that’s up to you on to how you see fit best to live your life….if others like your example they will follow, but remember “we are supposed to love everyone, and not judge anyone”….what works for you may not work for another, we all have to find our own way, be it with a religion or without.
Contradictions upon contradictions…..
Anyone that is so willing to discriminate against our own people based on sex or religion, contrary to existing Laws and Principles enshrined in the Constitution (2009) and Bill of Rights and Article 14 of ECHR (2000) is actually breaking the law and, ironically, on a collision course for ritual anal inspection at Northward.
“Let’s bring God in to our hearts, and spread his word and love each other” – is that before or after we kill the gays as recommended by Leviticus?
Yes, the Old testament did say some harsh things.. but that’s just what it is, the Old Testament. We are supposed to follow the New Testament.
The New Testament still says homosexuality is wrong, but they go about very differently.
Will Eden bash the bishop in the LA? Here’s hoping!!
I am sure he has been bashing the bishop all his life! One has to wonder, however, why people are so heated up about this. To quote Queen Gertrude “The lady doth protest too much, methinks”.
Errrr … I don’t see anything wrong for a gay couple to get married. So long its just to get married, and they don’t attack religious freedom, demanding that all ministers or priest MUST marry them. And if they want ministers to marry them I say they can at least ordain their own ministers and start their own churches. Besides they have their own Bibles now, called the “Queen James Version” :/
On the other hand, my worries are that once we allow gays to marry, they will be demanding that other laws pertaining to the family unit should apply to them. Like adopting and raising children, et cetera … A child has rights too… and one of those right is for a child to have a father and mother.
Tell that to the dynfunctional families of Cayman and tell that to your menfolk.
Unison – I have a question for you then…
So it’s better to have an abusive father, beating his wife in front of his kids… or beating his kids for that matter, than to have two women who love each other raise a child, or two men raise a child? Go back in your cave! What business is it of yours whether a gay couple want to have a family? NONE! How many deadbeat dads live in Cayman???? TONS!! Are those kids better off too because there’s a man and woman in their dynamic??? How ignorant can you be in this day and age! WOW!
Do not children who can’t speak for themselves have rights too??? Do they not have the right of their biological father and mother, or a male and female parent the way God intended for them to have in accordance to nature??? You are the ignorant one. 🙂 You certainly never came into this world from two people of the same sex! 🙂
Alan and Bee, thanks for your input. However, I fear that what you had to say will have had fairy limited impact on the Caymanian people, who simply do not know what you are talking about. Brings to mind that 45 Alan and I might well have danced to in Ibiza with the lyric “Everybody’s talkin ’bout a new way of walking, do you want to lose your mind?”.
Mr. Bishop, I have heard you giving all sorts of fancy explanations to same sex unions. I will ask you some questions:
1. What motivated you to become a Bishop?
2. What was your interpretation of marriage at that time?
3. Will you give that same explanation when its your turn to answer for your life?
Now, I do not have hatred towards people wanting to do anything with their life. I do not have a right to, but I have my beliefs as well. I do not have any hatred towards Gays.
But I will say this:
The earth in all its wonder was created by God.
Man and woman was created for one main reason. To procreate so that life continues on earth. Despite its imperfection, everything was created with logical sense. We can see that.
The pleasure of sex was simply to continue igniting that process of procreation. Its a natural process. Everything makes sense and there is a logical reason why everything happens during that process and what it does. The same manner in which our body processes food etc. We having a mouth, tongue to taste, and teeth to crush the food before processing by the stomach. All this is natural.
The earth has soil, which nourishes the plants which feeds us during our lives.
Can you imagine, if man could have breed an animal, the chaos there will be in this world? And trust me, if man could have done it, they would. That confirms the strict order of creation by God. Strict regulations have been created in regards to procreation.
However we as human beings, given the intelligence we have, we always look to explore in any way we can. We can see it all around us. Man trying to clone, trying to create life but we cannot blow breadth. So that is another restriction in itself, because again the world would have been in chaos and madness.
We also try to look for another high. The normal is never good enough. How far can we push the ceiling? We always use our intellect to manipulate and purposely misinterpret things to support our cause.
Having said all that, we need to ask ourselves, does same sex fit in with the natural continuation of life, that is having the natural ability to create life or do they have to depend on a man and woman union to continue to exist?
There will never be any intelligent explanation that will override the structure of creation by God supported by some of the pertinent examples I have highlighted above.
The debate of homo sexuality is here to stay. It seems to me, that it is being forced upon society for acceptance by those who believe in it and anyone who opposes it, is either backward in their thinking, spreading hatred and all sorts of things. So what about the rights of those who do not believe in it? Why can’t they continue believing in what they see is right just like those on the other side think their way is right?
Mr. Bishop, I will ask you to read these books if you have not read them as yet:
1. Straight & Narrow?: Compassion & Clarity in the Homosexuality Debate – by Thomas E. Schmidt.
2. What does the bible really teach about Homosexuality – by Kevin DeYoung.
I can’t even read your whoe post, let alone a list of books – another bishop
But God has created Gay people has he not? So surely they are natural too, otherwise why would he have created them in the first place? He has created man and woman to procreate and your tongue to taste and teeth to chew, well maybe there is a reason why he has created Gay people. What makes you so sure that being Gay isn’t natural? The world is over populated, maybe Gay people are here to prevent too many people from being born or maybe they are here to adopt children who have been abused by their own fathers or mothers. Nobody knows anything for sure. Nobody! I know the people have faith and believe in the bible, but if you were born in India you would be a Hindu and if you were born in Malaysia you would be a Muslim and if you were born in Isreal you would be a Jew. How do you know that their religions aren’t the right one? I know that when we die there will be a lot of disappointed people when they find out they have been following the wrong religion! The point I am trying to make is that nobody knows anything until we are dead so we shouldn’t spout stuff about Gay people and God because we are all clueless. We are following a book that was written a very long time ago and in any other situation it would be a book that would be seen as very outdated and not to be trusted. To be honest, if God was going to punish anyone for being Gay then he isn’t a very nice God in the first place. People are people and as long as they aren’t harming anyone they should left alone to live how they want to live.
Indeed! The Bible is a book written by man and not God. The historical context is always forgotten. Like any piece of “literature” is should be critiqued and re-examined. The fact that people pick and chose the passages that suit them but ignore other abominable sins that are just as “evil” in text of The Bible shows the continued contradictory nature of our local Christians. How many people have been to a BBQ at a local church that has had seafood and pork and eaten? How many people have beaten their spouses and gone to church the next day and professed to be a god fearing Christian. Cayman has one of the largest incidence of child abuse in the Americas (greater than the sinful USA who allows gay marriage) percentage wise vs population. What do these local churches say about this? What are they doing about this? Turning a blind eye like every other corruption on this good Christian island. To quote a very famous historical person “he without sin cast the first stone”
There is no God!! When the majority of people understand that the world will be more peaceful!!
There are many Gods, none of them are real.
Just like the believers, neither of you know either.
Apart fro the “Oh God” of Hangovers – definitely real
Mr.Brian, Ibiza? This is all getting too weird even for me. Please, the fundamentalist nutcases’ argument about “hell fire and damnation” is not the basis for any kind of counter argument based on their crackpot “reasoning”. You must have had a bad case of jet lag to have dreamed that one up.
Or a half case of Caybrew’s “Ironshore Bock”, perhaps? At 7% it can get you to make all sorts of wild assertions – I know from experience! But the bishops contention leaves me scratching my head. If he’s saying the fact that such a seat of debauchery like Ibiza hasn’t been struck by an earthquake, lightening bolt, flood, plague etc.signifies something, isn’t he giving credence to the belief that this is how God operates?
“However, there were no leaders from any of Cayman’s religious organisations in attendance to hear some of the reasoned arguments and well-researched presentations…”
The Bishop’s ‘arguments’ (to give them far more than their due) are grounded in preference, personal whimsy, idiosyncratic observations and cultural tea-leaf reading. None of which has any bearing on the only opinion on marriage that matters: God’s.
So no, most church leaders felt no great obligation to hear him speak.
And most church leader’s ‘arguments’ are based on what?
The homosexual community has an agenda to promote their lifestyle. It is no accident this so called bishop was invited to speak. I will tolerate you and I will love you as my neighbour, but please don’t preach your lifestyle to my children. I have the right to raise my child with moral values
All a bit rich from a Christian in the Cayman Islands.
And, what if your’re children turn out to be gay? god forbid. No one is teaching anyone about their sexual preference except for the crazy religious nuts that claim homosexuality to be evil.
Congratulations for being the first poster from Bonkers Britain. Good morning and welcome, friend!
Alan Wilson’s own ‘lifestyle’ is actually very conventional. He is a straight man, married to a woman and they have several adult children.
It’s almost 6.30am in the U.K. The “Bonkers Britain” crew are regaining their singular form of consciousness : Caymanians, brace yourself for the insults, labeling, and downright ignorance that has been the calling card of the “enlightened ones” from the mother country thus far. Lord help us. Pray.
Outta the waaayyyyy, sheep shagger!!!!
It did not appear that your prediction came to fruition.
“Just saying” 6.03pm – sorry to burst your bubble . The basic Christian Rule of Law is the Ten Commandments. Judaic Law, but adopted by the founders of the Christian faith, the Roman Catholic Church. Yep – whatever you call yourselves now, and whatever the form of your service, if you claim to be Christians, then geneologically, you are descended from Roman Catholicism, and the teachings of Christ.
Back to the Commandments. Which of the Ten makes any reference to homosexuality, lesbianism, or same sex marriages – none. The closest is the Tenth which, amongst other things , demands that you shall not covet your neighbors ass – but that seems a bit of a stretch in any interpretation.
What the Commandments do demand in the field of sexual behavior, is that you shall not be guilty of fornication nor adultery, which activities are rampant in Cayman, but do not attract the same level of condemnation from people such as yourself, or the Member for BT. If you are going to get religious on us, let’s have a level playing field.
And don’t start quoting Leviticus – that was Judaic Civil Law, for what they saw as a better form of social order.
What an ignorant interpretation. Since the only way to procreate is with a man and a woman, the law is already written in nature. Bit like posting a sign to say do not run faster than 50MPH. There is no commandment against drinking and smoking either, but we all know it is not good for you.
Look, you live your lifestyle, and I will live mine, but don’t try and tell me that we have to change our laws to suit you, go and find a place that does.
And does your law discriminate against peoples rights or try to take them away? If so, then ya that’s gotta change, for the better. It’s a wonder how women have the previleges they do here based off these same laws…….
Then why do dolphins, penguins, ducks and other animals display homosexuality in nature? I guess they just cursed na true?
Yeah, because if you can find an animal that does it, then it MUST be good/natural for humans too. Like females cannibalising their lovers after sex.
You forgot the sheep, mate.
so in your eyes a barren woman or an infertile man should not be allowed to copulate as they also cannot procreate as nature intended, great argument!
Do you even know how insulting the barren is to an infertile woman. I am “barren” and it’s heartbreaking so in future please don’t use that word because it makes me feel like a useless woman who may as well be dead.
do you feel the same way about those that can’t have children? are they ‘against nature’ and should not allow to marry?! ludicrous
At the moment it’s 4.31am in the U.K. Observe the avalanche of intolerant bigotry coming our way from “Barmy Britain” in about an hour or so as these zealots awake!
What avalanche? Good dose of late night xenophobia though.
The UK’s culture is quite different to Caymans, so everything acceptable there is not here.
LGBT is an aberration and not the norm for the human race! The standard and norm for marrriage is a man and a woman. If this is not the case then the human race will be discontinued by what is not the norm and a lesser standard.
Exactly. Well said!
Being born left-handed is also a statistical aberration, but it doesn’t make that person any less of a person. How does their being born left-handed affect you? Do you pace around all night wondering what your left-handed neighbor will do next? It certainly doesn’t erase existing bill of rights and legal protections under the ECHR for all people. It is strange that so many voters and serving MLAs believe that a hate-filled referendum will change what is already enshrined. We need to ask ourselves frankly, how does anyone else’s sexuality or ability and/or willingness to procreate affect us at all? It doesn’t.
Following your non-sensical procreation argument, it would be an offense for loving men and women unable to conceive to be declare their love and be married before God…because how are they supposed to start a family at 50 or without fertility treatments, right? That would be a great offense to you and the rest of the idiots you purport to represent.
I wonder what Bible the Bishop was referring to. It must be the Revised pro-LGBT non-binary cis-gender-fluid pansexual one (2016 Special Edition) that no one has ever heard of.
Jokes aside, it’s amazing how we all can read the same book and come to very different interpretations and conclusions. In all my 30-something years, I have never heard it spun the way this guy is spinning it.
I wonder if these are his personal views, or the views and position of the entire Anglican church.
With the Anglican Church, only the Good Lord could ever have the remotest clue as to their thinking, collective or otherwise!
I know right Lynn? Which copy of the Bible is he reading from? Never heard of it. As far as I know, and I know the Bible, Leviticus 20:13 says homosexuals are to be put to death. There is no way else to interpret it. Not sure if this bishop understands that he isn’t preaching on behalf of the bible or god but on behalf of his own morality and his own views. Props to him for standing up for the rights of others none the less, just hope he is genuine and not doing good deeds just to get into heaven like most christians do here on this island.
Leviticus 20:13 calls homosexuality an “abomination”. I do hope you’ve never inadvertently committed any “abominations” yourself, like eating at the Lobster Pot (Leviticus 11:10), consuming jerk chicken (Leviticus 11:13), enjoying a hamburger (Leviticus 11:42), or having some bbq ribs (Isaiah 66:17). Cayman’s laws should certainly be revised to put to death anyone who accidentally enjoys a delicious dinner.
I also hope you’ve never worn a cotton-poly blend (Deuteronomy 22:11), or, as a lady, a pair of jeans (Deuteronomy 22:5), for those too are abominations.
It is surprising, too, that Caymanian law merely allows the spouse of an adulterer a divorce, but doesn’t require the adulterer to be put to death, which, as we know, is required by Leviticus 20:10.
—
Leviticus 11:10 “But anything in the seas or the rivers that has not fins and scales, of the swarming creatures in the waters and of the living creatures that are in the waters, is an abomination to you. They shall remain an abomination to you; of their flesh you shall not eat, and their carcasses you shall have in abomination. Everything in the waters that has not fins and scales is an abomination to you.”
Leviticus 11:13 “And these you shall have in abomination among the birds, they shall not be eaten, they are an abomination: the eagle, the vulture, the osprey, the kite, the falcon according to its kind, every raven according to its kind, the ostrich, the nighthawk, the sea gull, the hawk according to its kind, the owl, the cormorant, the ibis, the water hen, the pelican, the carrion vulture, the stork, the heron according to its kind, the hoopoe, and the bat.”
Leviticus 11:42 “Whatever goes on its belly, and whatever goes on all fours, or whatever has many feet, all the swarming things that swarm upon the earth, you shall not eat; for they are an abomination.”
Isaiah 66:17 “Those who consecrate and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following the one in the midst of those who eat the flesh of pigs and rats and other abominable things–they will meet their end together,” declares the LORD.
Deuteronomy 22:5 “A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman’s garment; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD your God.”
Deuteronomy 22:11 “Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woollen and linen together.”
Leviticus 20:10 “And the man that committeth adultery with another man’s wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death”.
If this was 500BC, you’d have a point. But, well, it isn’t. And since about 2,000 years ago when this guy called Jesus came along and said that the old ritual laws were done away with, no-one has been bound by those laws. But hey, at least you SOUND knowledgeable.
Exactly my point.
To be perfectly clear, my prior post was intended to be sarcastic. It would be ridiculous for Cayman to revise its laws to adhere to these literal biblical rules, which, even scripturally, appear to have limited value since the coming of Christ.
Nevertheless, several commentators here (and in comments to similar recent articles) have referenced Leviticus as supposedly “clear” support for the proposition that the bible condemns homosexuality and that Cayman’s laws should, therefore, reflect that condemnation.
It simply does not.
As you correctly point out, the New Testament tells us in Ephesians 2:14 that Christ’s coming set aside the old laws. “For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility that by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations.” Matthew 5:17 echoes the notion that the laws of the Old Testament have been fulfilled by Christ’s coming and, as such, the old laws are no longer necessary. “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.”
My argument, and the argument you make to repudiate it, are one in the same — the literal laws of the Old Testament (whether regarding shellfish or homosexual behavior) have been set aside. They should not be used to form the basis for modern laws.
That, of course, is entirely separate from the more fundamental question of whether the laws of a country that welcomes peoples of many faiths should ever be based on the texts of a single faith.
No…but…those ones were abolished when Jesus died for our sins, right? The gay one stuck though, THAT ONE was really serious, he meant it. Screw football, cherry picking should be Cayman’s national sport.
You tell them Biblical Scholar – to quote Corporal Jones, “they don’t like it up em!”
Book of Cyril 16:50, just before tea time.
“There shall in that time be rumors of things going astray, erm, and there shall be a great confusion as to where things really are, and nobody will really know where lieth those little things with the sort of raffia-work base, that has an attachment. At that time, a friend shall lose his friend’s hammer, and the young shall not know where lieth the things possessed by their fathers that their fathers put there only just the night before, about eight O’clock.”
So, since Leviticus 20:13 says homosexuals shall be put to death, are Caymanians now going to start executing Gays???
you need to get out more!
Is the Right Reverend a Right Reverend for life?
We have some Right Honourables that can challenge his views
I’m sorry but this man is off track. Nothing bad happen in Europe? So what he calk terrorism that’s plauging Europe. CNS all he has to do in read the UK papers daily. A whole lot of bad going on and yes a lot directed to gays. So those findings are off base!
Do you have “spell check” on your computer?
Yes, I just choose not to switch it on. Is that a problem?
No problem at all. It helps us work out you are stupid and illiterate all the more quickly.
12.52pm It proves how judgemental you are.
At 12.52 Even with spellcheck yours is a bigoted,judgemental post. So spellcheck did not improve your comment at all.
How exactly would correct spelling and proper grammar do anything to improve the quality of that post?
Yep, its those crazy gays going around massacring people. Or perhaps you mean they are provoking it by being gay? Do explain, since a casual reader of your comment might just think that perhaps in making comments like this after 49 people were killed by a religious maniac we should be making sure you don’t have access to weapons.
Please don’t call any damnation down on the Cayman Islands. Orlando RIP we do not need!
Orlando is not dead
I don’t even want to dream about the kind of hell fire that is being prepared for people like you bishop.
Sorry, what bible are you reading from?
Because nothing happened in England doesn’t mean it is right and sanctioned by God. The church of England have no authority to change God’s laws. If God said it, we must believe it, sanction it and live by it.
Nothing happened like what happened in Orlando this past weekend before either but am afraid it will not stop there. Unfortunately, the radicals mis-interpret the written Word of God and believe they are doing God’s work but not so.
With all that is happening around the world and with prophecy fulfilling before our very eyes, why is so much attention given to this alternative lifestyle. Well because of academics who believe that they will be able to explain to God via their own eisegesis.
Am begging you and all of you highly intelligent beings to show us in the Holy Bible where God sanctioned homosexuality, to the contrary. What part of abomination you, England, the Bee, the Pope don’t understand? Homosexuality is an abomination. PERIOD.
You so called academics better unite your brain power to create some body armour to protect you from the hell fire being prepared for Satan and his angels that the Saviour died to keep us all out off.
Stop mis-interpreting God’s Word to justify sin. The wheat and the tares shall grow together until the day of harvest, so leave the homosexuals alone, love them regardless and try to help them out of living a sinful life and don’t provide for them to loose their souls and entire nations to drink of this bitter cup. Shame on you bishop.
God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him, male and female created he them. God commanded them to be fruitful and multiply, and replenish the earth. Would all the mad persons tell me how two gays or lesbians can produce children. Remember that God destroyed Sodom for the very same kind of lifestyle. I would welcome a different woman every night and have as many women as I can afford to support as a married man. The same bible condemns it. It is called adultery. For that reason I refrain from that life style. The gays need to do the same. It’s a sin that will lead them to hell. It does not mean that they are not to be loved. But the life style is a different matter. We all need to condemn it. End of story.
If God created man and woman in his own likeness then does this mean that God was bisexual?
You are really sick.
Eating shell fish and turtle is also an abomination in the same book you are quoting, but you ignore that, just as you ignore the fact the one of the most mentioned sins in the bible is money lending, punishable by death, yet Cayman funds itself by this industry.
I love selective bible bashers, that pick and choose which parts they want so they can try and control the lives of others.
Maybe as a Christian you should read the whole of the bible if you want to pretend to be a Christian.
10:54. Easy. They probably cannot comprehend this logic you speak of.
Wonder what that seismic reading up by Pedro earlier might have been caused by?
Great to see real religious people spreading tolerance, acceptance and facts instead of bigotry, hate and misinformation.
God made Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve.
You mean evolution made adam and eve and steve?
So we are all a result of inbreed?
Well in the Cayman Islands yes!
This is a gift that keeps on giving!
No, mate, that was that 12 pack the other night.