UK endorsing oppression of LGBTIs, says activist
Dr Leonardo Raznovich
(CNS): The UK has actively engaged with the Bermuda government “in undermining the rule of law, ignoring an order of the local court and facilitating the withdrawal of equality” for the lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and intersex community there, Dr Leonardo Raznovich, a lawyer and Cayman-based LGBTI activist has said. Highlighting Britain’s failure to protect the rights of LGBTI people after it supported the Bermuda government’s reversal of the marriage equality law, Raznovich said the UK’s complicity was “exceptionally disturbing”, and asked if the UK would have endorsed such a move if it had been reversing the rights of non-Christian couples or interracial couples.
Raznovich said the support of the UK for this act of discrimination showed disregard for “good governance”, a central policy of the constitutional arrangements in place between Britain and its overseas territories.
Highlighting other instances here in Cayman of discrimination against the LGBTI community, Raznovich said the UK had not only actively engaged in undermining the rule of law by endorsing the removal of legally established constitutional rights from a section of the population in Bermuda, but it is also disregarding the rights of the LGBTI community in Cayman and other British Overseas Territories.
Raznovich pointed to the incitement to violence against gay people in the Legislative Assembly, the petition organised by Colours Cayman that was ignored by the UK, and its support of the local government here in its approach to Caymanian same-sex couples, who are forced to live overseas.
Raznovich won the right to remain in Cayman as a dependent on his British husband’s work permit because the couple are legally married in their respective countries. But he noted that Caymanians in same-sex marriages with non-Caymanians are forced to live overseas because the government does not recognise those marriages because there is no supporting equality legislation here.
“These breaches of the ECHR in the Cayman Islands and this latest despicable act in Bermuda call into question the UK’s respect for human rights,” the lawyer said. “The UK clearly has its own policies and agenda in place with regards to governance of these territories that, for whatever reason, endorse oppression and segregation against LGBTI people, in breach of the local rule of law and international law.”
Raznovich called on the UK to explain why LGBTI citizens are less worthy of equality and how ‘good governance’ permits segregation of LGBTI people.
“Until then, the message sent for LGBTI people in other British Overseas Territories, such as the Cayman Islands, is lugubrious: you can fight for, and secure, equality under local law, but the UK government will support the taking away of that right in defiance of the rule of law and disregard for the promise of securing ‘good governance’ for all persons.”
Raznovich has said that the Bermuda government cannot lawfully overturn its marriage act with the Domestic Partnership Act 2018 because the original legislation came about as a result of a ruling of Bermuda’s own higher court. The lawyer argues that the only lawful route against that law was through an appeal against the Supreme Court ruling or a constitutional change.
See Raznovich’s full arguments in the CNS Library
Category: Caribbean, UK, World News
What are you nay sayers waiting on, go ahead and sue the Bermuda Government under human rights abuse.
Considering how many people threatened to sue the Cayman Government if they did the same thing, there should be no shortage of people willing to file.
We have heard many times that if Cayman enacted such a law that we would be forced to withdraw it by the British Government through the courts.
Maybe Bermuda’s Legal Department knows something that the Cayman Legal Department does not.
You have no idea about what you are talking about
Sorry, not a human right. If you want it to become one, consider whether hurling insults is the best way to get it.
Ah, so we need your permission to have Human rights? That’s the whole point of human rights…that idiots like you don’t get to choose who has them.
Judging by these comments it is clear to see that CNS has become a safe-room for a collection of wilfully ignorant people pretending as if marriage equality is the final frontier of human equality…or even the most pressing and dangerous force in the world today.
Folks are on here pretending as if inequality and racism is a thing of the past and WHTE POWER has not returned to the helm of western politics right now.
France. Germany. UK. Austria. Denmark. Norway. Greece. Italy. Australia. USA … just to name a few.
Anyway, cue the excuses, alternate labels, hair-splitting, misrepresentation, and good old fashioned denial.
The enlightened has to suppress their better judgment and understanding in order to earnestly engage in these trumped-up debates.
(E.g. We see many supposedly expert interpretations and dissection of 2,000 year old biblical text as a means to counter arguments, yet at the same time we find the feigned misunderstanding of what Brexit 2016 was really about. Stop it, you frauds.)
I refuse to be sucked in to this smokescreen of “social justice” – ESPECIALLY when so many of the participants hail from a fundamentally flawed background and perspective.
Cayman’s stance on gay marriage will have far less impact on the fabric of our society than in what the “mother country” and her continental cousins are primarily engaged currently.
We will be just fine over here – as for them, not so much. Then again, all of us in here know this, as so many have fled from over yonder to right here for a better life.
– Whodatis
The faux-intellectual himself
*yawn*
When an intended insult turns into an unintended compliment.
Bless…
– Who
😉
An inane response to having your a$$ royally whipped, and rightly so. “Its my ball and I am not playing any more”. Except, its not your ball. Play we will, and if you don’t like that, please just go back to your cave. Your creations are so lopsided, that I have to wonder how you ended up with these frankly deranged views.
Speaking of willful ignorance
His deflection problem is getting. And more dull.
“There are persons who aren’t brainwashed in the same way that I am, I am actually being challenged on my bullshit, so I am just going to call it a safe-space while I rant about WHITE POWER and how unimportant our discrimination is, because logic and facts and human decency”
Wonderfully
Hilariously
Obtuse
Either you take a stand against all discrimination or you allow the potential for yourself to be discriminated against
Today it’s gays, tomorrow is anybody’s guess
Be principled, be fair and have empathy for others
We are all humans, we are all brothers and sisters
Isn’t it what the Bible teaches overall?
10.56 you refer to “we are all brothers and sisters”. My problem is that I can hardly tell who is which anymore! LMArthO.
I am still waiting for someone to explain to me how LBGTI being able to marry would take away the rights of heterosexual people.
Generally, Caymanians are not fans of creating a society where family values are watered down by false, politically-correct, equalization of same gender led households.
The regenerative (ahem) “nature” of human heterosexuality is inherently superior to any given alternative – and not only because ALL alternates rely thereon to exist in the first place.
Family values and Cayman in the same sentence? Get over yourself! Adultery and incest everywhere, abuse everywhere, corruption everywhere and you want to talk about values. Let’s not forget the double standards.
Well 1150, there is your explanation. It is a terrible explanation but it all the Bible thumpers have got.
I am not a Bible thumper nor was there any reference to scripture or religious perspective.
You clearly have a preconceived bias against Caymanians that are biased against gay marriage.
Seems fair.
Caribbean “Family Values” are not exactly a clinic of excellence. Have a look at the Court Cause Lists to confirm. Zero gay-related court filings. If devoted Johnny and Tommy Caymanian want to co-habitate in a committed loving and caring relationship (one that most people don’t know exist), they should be allowed to do so with all of the rights and protections as other married people, without having to suppress their love in public or leave their born home to insulate you from confrontation with your own prejudices. No Cayman Islands church or Minister has ever been asked to consecrate these ceremonies, and that wouldn’t need to change. Their committed love couldn’t possibly erode the rampant culture of deadbeat dads, glorified-spousal infidelity, teen-pregancies, prolific rates of incest/pedophilia and domestic violence – ie. the so-called Caribbean heterosexual “family values” that our Evangelicals entirely obscure from acknowledgement. Sermonizing against “gay marriage” has become the number one priority – forsaking all of Cayman’s children dealing with these other more realistic and immediately applicable social problems. If they choose to adopt a kid, I’d wager Johnny and Tommy would probably provide a safer more stable home than most hetero-couples in the Cayman Islands, and those kids would grow up to be nicer and more tolerant people.
Sounds a lot like North Dakota and Lancashire – but nice attempt at the veiled racism.
Feel free to try again.
Many truths
Except of course that with the advent of in vitro fertilisation the last part is simply not true. You don’t need to be heterosexual to fertilize an egg or carry a baby to term.
Whatever the case, the essence of heterosexuality has to be mimicked to bring forth human life.
You are free to protest until blue in the face – but it is what it is Bo-Bo.
Should heterosexual couples who are uninterested in procreating be prohibited from getting married then? That seems like it would be a fair alternative if your position is that marriage is meant to facilitate procreation.
To a simpleton like yourself it would appear as if that is my position.
However, I encourage you to reread and try again.
The simpleton is he who turns to insults instead of explaining his point, poorly made or improperly reasoned.
The alignment of anti-Black racism with resistance to gay marriage misses the mark completely.
A Black person is a Black person all day, every day.
When encountered by a racist individual, company, gym, hotel employee, cop, teacher, recruiter, potential in-law – they will be discriminated against.
Put it this way, if given a magic wand to wave and switch between being Black or gay when faced with many daily activities, almost every young Black male in America or the UK would be suffering from carpal tunnel syndrome right now – the same applies, in fact even moreso, the further back in time we go.
E.g. Compare that to the MANY women, some I know personally, who for whatever reason, have divorced after starting and raising a family (with a man), only to move forward with a new lesbian partner – who often come from a similar background; also divorced with children.
I could also throw in the observation that often one or both of the women in the lesbian relationship will revert back to the penis from time to time as they see fit – I even have a few personal examples in this regard.
The point here is, race is absolutely an immutable characteristic, but clearly sexual orientation is not; or at least, in many instances, not to the extent where it satisfies the supposed “human right” of the individual in question – which by the way, has been recently ruled as non-existent.
(Come to think of it, I have slept with a few lesbians in my lifetime; however, none of the Black women I shared a night with woke up as Pamela Anderson – strange, no?
I could provide a few more examples but the point has been made.)
So, kindly stop with the assertion that the struggle of gay marriage is equal to that of racism.
No Black person ever has the option to not be Black and face the risks thereof.
All discrimination is unfortunate, but not all discrimination is equal.
E.g. Many Nigerians and Lithuanians would likely have a safer and more peaceful existence in Cayman when compared to the UK – and to be fair, I guess a married, gay couple would have more rights in Ireland than in Cayman.
However, both realities are democratic manifestations of the respective communities.
What Dr Leo (and his CNS friends) is calling for is akin to me as a Caymanian appealing to the UK authorities to reject the Brexit result on the basis that it goes against the morals, laws, policies, and culture of the Cayman Islands (BOT).
I doubt the good PhD and his colleagues would pay me much mind.
We don’t pay you much mind because your entire argument is based on anecdotes and unverifiable supposed encounters with magical lesbians who like men, as oxymoronic as it is
The fact that you think sexuality is some fluid thing that people can just wake up and choose shows the depths of your ignorance, I pose the question at what point in your life did you decide to be straight? What day did you wake up and say “I like women and that’s my decision” The answer you are going to say is “I was born straight it was not a choice” why is it so hard for you people to understand that sentence (with the appropriate orientation filled in) also applies to LGBTQ members as well.
By definition a lesbian has no interest in sleeping with any man, a woman who does otherwise is clearly not a lesbian even if she calls herself one, is a straight man who is sexually attracted to or sleeps with other men straight? No by definition he is not even if he calls himself that ( people don’t necessarily agree with their orientations that doesn’t mean they can change it, they have tried for years to “cure” gay it doesn’t work
There is also this magical thing called bisexuality where persons can like both of the binary genders at once ( it’s hard to wrap your head around I know, but with time and patience you might just develop the mental capacity to understand it) Many bisexual persons identify as either straight or heterosexual for simplicity and many have a preference one way or the other it isn’t a 50/50 split.
Straight people like to think of sexuality as either gay or straight when in actuality it is more akin to a spectrum with people falling all along the line
Anecdotes aside let’s move on to your other BS with the generic heterosexual anti-gay response of “gay marriage is not equal to slavery/civil rights/black discrimination”
No one is saying they are the equal or same thing (if they are they are wrong) , they are clearly different in length, harshness, source, and perspective and so on. But that does not mean there aren’t similarities between the two struggles.
From this point on I will reply to specific points of misinformation, half truths and straight up lies by quoting you.
“The point here is, race is absolutely an immutable characteristic, but clearly sexual orientation is not; or at least, in many instances, not to the extent where it satisfies the supposed “human right” of the individual in question – which by the way, has been recently ruled as non-existent.”
– 1… Human rights aren’t dictated by virtue of being immutable traits, for instance the ability to marry and have a family is not an immutable trait, it is a very mutable trait that some people via genetics are unable to do, they are still entitled to that right even if they cannot reproduce
2… As for sexuality not being an immutable trait, which is preposterous you literally contradict yourself here “but clearly sexual orientation is not; or at least, in many instances” either it is immutable or it isn’t there is no in between.
3 … The supposed ruling declaring “Gay marriage is not a right” is constantly misrepresented by conservatives to try to shut people up. First of all, courts have ruled a myriad of things that were then overturned, overruled or undone, and secondly the courts actual ruling was more in relation to the wording of the Convention of human rights, a document written almost 70 years ago, countries will not be bound because there is no clear mandate but they are still allowed to recognize the right if they so choose. It is not so much an absence of the right itself rather the wording was written to likely specifically exclude it from consideration.
“(Come to think of it, I have slept with a few lesbians in my lifetime; however, none of the Black women I shared a night with woke up as Pamela Anderson – strange, no?
I could provide a few more examples but the point has been made.)” –
1 Pointless oxymoronic anecdote that is of little actual value, by definition if they were sexually attracted to you and proceeded to sleep with you, they are not ( let me repeat ARE NOT) an actual lesbian, Likely bisexuals in denial, I know that doesn’t sound as good to your beer friends but unless you are narcissistic enough to actually lesbians want you (which again means they aren’t lesbians) , this is something you know but disregard
“So, kindly stop with the assertion that the struggle of gay marriage is equal to that of racism.
No Black person ever has the option to not be Black and face the risks thereof.”
– No one is doing this, if they are doing it it is wrong, also as for the “the option to not be black” it might not be cost effective but there are surely ways to modify your phenotype (high profile instances include Micheal Jackson, though he claimed for “medical reasons”) possible, not probably but possible nonetheless.
“All discrimination is unfortunate, but not all discrimination is equal.”
– You are saying all discrimination is unfortunate but still rationalizing and justifying the thing you are clearly calling discrimination, you confused or something?
Ironic, the discrimination is bad, but let’s keep doing it
“E.g. Many Nigerians and Lithuanians would likely have a safer and more peaceful existence in Cayman when compared to the UK – and to be fair, I guess a married, gay couple would have more rights in Ireland than in Cayman.
However, both realities are democratic manifestations of the respective communities.”
– Ok then, in other news, chips taste good, sodas are sugary and America is a country of obese people.
(is that how this works, we just say obvious things to try to fill out space?)
“What Dr Leo (and his CNS friends) is calling for is akin to me as a Caymanian appealing to the UK authorities to reject the Brexit result on the basis that it goes against the morals, laws, policies, and culture of the Cayman Islands (BOT).
I doubt the good PhD and his colleagues would pay me much mind.”
1… Except Cayman is subject to the UK not the other way around, if Cayman was suzerain to the UK this would be true, it is not so is there a point (not really) though feel free to make high-minded rationalizations to whatever you choose (at least make them better than this)
2 … We do pay you mind, we listen to what others say and then we proceed to poke holes in your argument because the logic is fallible ( which is the part where you stop listening and go back to circling the wagons and playing as the victims in this situation)
If you made it this far you deserve a cookie, probably the longest comment I have ever written but unlike the opposition we have a case to be made other than “I don’t like them” or “it goes against my beliefs or my religion”
You’re gonna have to do better than this m8
Especially on the weekend when I have free time
Diogenes
Brilliant destruction of idiocy. Line by line, word by word. Sadly many people actually believe this shit without thinking of the stupidity of their arguments.
Diogenes, you are golden!! I doubt Anonymous 4:41 has the capacity to appreciate your well articulated argument. He’s probably too occupied to even care as all the lesbians in the world are probably throwing themselves at him.
pow…
Everyone keep calm and DO NOT FEED THE TROLL!
“No Black person ever has the option to not be Black and face the risks thereof.”
Except that black (or mixed) people “passing” as white has been a thing for decades
1.) I specifically referenced Black people.
2.) Do you really want to base your argument on the pathetic reality that “passing” is real thing propped up by the majority group of western society?
The recognition of LGBTQ civil rights is an overdue inevitability. If one major airline or liner took a similar stance against Cayman that we are seeing this week on withdrawn “NRA” support, the 180 on this antiquated “Evangelical Morality” would be measured in a finger snap. It’s in our best interest to get ahead of that bad press and voluntarily support the civil rights of all – especially born Caymanians. That is, if there is any truth to this self-ascribed “kindness” motif.
I am a Caymanian atheist and I support my country’s stance against gay marriage.
(Your move).
Congrats, I am sure you came to that conclusion all on your own and were not influenced by any other Caymanians
I am sure you being brought up among this mindset of hatred and discrimination had nothing to do with you finding said discrimination normal
Everyone is influenced by their surroundings even if you don’t acknowledge it
I’d love to see how you justify the discrimination though, and just remember
the same ones you are agreeing with hate you just as much as they hate the LGBTQ community
Hatred ? Because we do not condone gay marriage you say we hate ? The biggest Issue I have with the LGBT people is their willingness to lie and use false information to support their cause, give me one example of hatred being at the root of our stance against gay marriage ???
To be certain, suppressing the civil obligation to recognize and protect two people’s love (even if of the same sex), is not an act of openness, peace, and love. It’s definitely selective discrimination emanating from a dark place of anger and hatred – and this is confirmed in your free admission that you take issue with “the LGBT people”.
Only 2? Hmm…that seems a bit discriminatory.
What about 3 people?
Are you campaigning for them as well – and the subsequent chain migration rights of their spouses and dependents?
If not, why?
– Whodatis
Slippery slope argument the ultimate form of “I have no actual reason”
Where are all the Poly-amorous trisexuals unicorns or whatever you people think will happen if you get off your high horses and give people equality. Plenty of countries have gay marriage already and the sky isn’t falling
Crazy to think this is real in 2018
Humans have gone nowhere in the last century
So, you do acknowledge the discriminatory nature of a limitation to 2 individuals having the right to marry?
Either directly address the post to which you have replied or stfu.
Cheers matey.
Who, how many times does the difference need to be explained to you in the comments here on CNS before you understand the difference? Polygamy and same sex marriage are two independent things, no matter how often you conflate them.
…and how many times does it need to be explained to you that claims and grievances of DISCRIMINATION under the law is behind equal marriage and a host of hot-button issues?
Like it or not, be it polygamy, gay marriage, you name it – so long as the law is scripted in a manner that does not include every conceivable variant, someone(s) somewhere will have a “rightful” claim to discrimination.
Good luck and enjoy the circus.
– Who
You clearly do not understand laws against discrimination, which require NOT JUST different treatment under the law, but different treatment that unjustifiably deprives a person of a fundamental right on the basis of a protected characteristic. So, no, not everyone has a rightful claim to discrimination.
I’m curious, what false information do you contend LGBT people put forward to support their cause?
I hear you. However, despite all of that, you have failed to explain how I have developed into a Caymanian atheist.
Pretty much obliterates your little theory there, doesn’t it.
I wonder how many Caymanians will support your godless view of the world. Remember that Martin Niemoller quote:
First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
They don’t have to and I don’t expect them to.
Now if only certain other “minority groups” could exercise similar mutual respect for the beliefs of others.
Could Caymanians kindly stop pretending that the country stands united against gay marriage? There are plenty of Caymanians who support gay marriage, so please stop pretending like there’s only one position on this issue.
Dr Raz – fyi London knows how to play politics buddy. You should have seen that coming.
As a Brit from England I respect the Caymanians right to choose to enforce their laws. If they don’t want same sex marriage here, that’s fair enough.it is a choice exclusively based on a Bible, Ie religion.
I think people, not from the caribbean, get frustrated by the hypocrisy of Caymanians when they see festivals like batabano. Children are supposed to go and watch the “culture” which amounts to a few men and women grinding their parts together. Ithis sexuality encouraged In their Bible?? Is this behaviour less harmful that a gay man getting a visa on his partners work permit?
I don’t even need to start on the casual infedility that riddles cayman society.
Two wrongs do not make a right
That’s lazy of you! Why not just say, “Do as I say, not as I do.”
You forgot to mention the rampant amount of wh*ring/fornication, cheating, wife-beating, drunkenness, drug-use, cursing, eating shrimp, gambling, etc. But when it comes to the gays, all of a sudden it’s, “Thus saith the Lord.”
Sickening
*EUROPEAN COURT OF HUMAN RIGHTS: HOMOSEXUAL MARRIAGE IS NOT A HUMAN RIGHT*
*Judgment of the Human Rights Court of Strasbourg -France*
*Unanimously, the World Court of Human Rights has established, verbatim, that “there is no right to homosexual marriage.” The 47 judges of the 47 countries of the Council of Europe, which are members of the full Court of Strasbourg (the world’s most important human rights court), issued a statement of great relevance that has been surprisingly silenced by information progressivism and its area of influence. In fact, unanimously, the 47 judges approved the ruling that “there is no right to homosexual marriage.” The sentence was based on a myriad of philosophical and anthropological considerations based on natural order, common sense, scientific reports and, of course, positive law.Within the latter, in particular, the judgment was based on Article 12 of the European Convention on Human Rights. This is equivalent to the articles of human rights treaties, as in the case of 17 of the Pact of San José and nº 23 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. In this historic but not disclosed, Resolution, the Court decided that the concept of family not only contemplates “the traditional concept of marriage, that is, the union of a man and a woman”, but also that they should not be imposed on governments to “obligation to open marriage to persons of the same sex”. As for the principle of non-discrimination, the Court also added that there is no discrimination, since “States are free to reserve marriage only to heterosexual couples.”*
It is important and absolutely necessary to spread this kind of news because governments and sympathizers of such lobbies will not want people to know. Help spread if you want! Obviously, it does not interest the media to publicize this news.
The headline should actually read:
“EUROPEAN COURT OF HUMAN RIGHTS: HOMOSEXUAL MARRIAGE IS NOT A HUMAN RIGHT UNDER THE WORDING OF A DOCUMENT DRAFTED ALMOST 70 YEARS AGO AND TECHNICALLY STATES CAN STILL DECIDE THEMSELVES UNLESS THE WORDING IS CHANGED, MANY MEMBER STATES HAVE ALREADY DECIDED THEMSELVES TO GRANT GAY RIGHTS AND PROTECTIONS, BECAUSE THEY HAVE A SHRED OF DECENCY”
The right wing is desperate for a win so they flash a headline and then casually leave out the truth
Disregard it
It is a Civil Right and UK Territorial obligation.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/9157029/Gay-marriage-is-not-a-human-right-according-to-European-ruling.html
Evidently you have only read an article about the case, and not read into the Convention or the previous rulings on this issue.
Gay marriage is not guaranteed in the ECHR in sections 8 or 12, furthermore The current wording of the European Convention on Human Rights allows for each state to decide but that freedom is based on the wording of the convention which is subject to change or new interpretations in future
The fact that you think it is some huge win that a treaty drafted in 1950 is worded specifically not to include gay marriage is hilarious, the gay rights movement didn’t start until the late 1960s and even now more than half of the states already recognize Homosexual relationships legally through marriage or other unions
It’s always fun finding people who run with headlines without actually knowing what they are talking about though, makes ripping your argument apart that much more enjoyable
I suggest you read this statement by Gregor Puppinck at the ECLJ:
“The ECLJ welcomes this decision, which it considers consistent with the correct interpretation of the European Convention on Human Rights. The ECLJ notes, however, that this decision does not totally rule out the possibility of a future development in the Court position in favour of a right to same-sex marriage as part of a right “to the recognition” of stable relationships. It also recognises that such an interpretation cannot be based on the wording of the Convention.
The question of same-sex marriage pushes the Court to the limits of its ability to interpret the Convention. These limits are marked by the very wording of this treaty and by the explicit will of the majority of its Member States. Although it is still appropriate to apply the Convention to the changes in society, on the contrary, it is inappropriate to pretend changing the very content of the Convention.”
Diogenes
We should get rid a marriage in general.
It is outdated and the world is changing.
The issues here are not about democracy as some opine…but is about human rights! Human rights are especially due to minorities as they would never have the vote for same by way of a “democracy”. Especially in a place where some politicians are allowed to incite hate speech in the LA whilst most others, including various speakers of the house, look on and say nothing! Even where many have family members who are LGBT.
Dr. Raznovich is correct in this assertion and I for one (knowing several Caymanians who have had to live abroad because they feel and are disenfranchised in their own island nation) am grateful that Dr. Raznovich has chosen to help bring Cayman, and other BOT’s, in line with human rights of most developed locales by highlighting the UK’s failing its obligations here.
Straight Caymanian of many generations.
This Mr. Razvonich seems to think that we have to change our laws to amccomodate his marriage. Our laws says marriage is between a man and a woman. We have no plans on changing it and the Premier would dare do it. You can go ahead and love whoever you choose but you really have no business trying to change our laws and norms . If you continue to be so unhappy you have every right to leave as soon as possible.
I’m with Bermuda. Democracy is the will of the people and not the minority ‘activists’.
And the minority is trying to turn the whole Island the other way .
Replace the idea of gay marriage with civil rights or slavery and see if that logic holds up
Spoiler: It doesn’t
Also there was no democratic vote that concluded with a majority saying “We do not want gay marriage” which kinda throws your argument out unless you claim to know percentages of those for and those against it
It was never a sin to be black! Stop using that as a parallel because that argument is silly
Some people saw black skin as the mark of cain
also Cayman’s laws are not written in accordance with sins in the bible of course casually leave that out
The constitution says we are a Christian Country and we enshrined Christian principle and morals into the constitution- seems pretty clear to me
Yet the government supports events like Batabano Braccanal and Pirates weeks, the epitome of hedonism and prime and clear examples of sins
Where is the law against getting drunk?
Where is the law preventing divorcees from remarrying?
Where is the law against wearing mixed fabrics?
Where is the law against eating shellfish?
Where is the law against getting your hair cut or shaving?
Please talk to me again about our christian government and our christian values as we are descended from generations of incest and inbreeding
I can never understand christian hypocrisy
Your sins are fine but you will condemn people who are just trying to live their lives in peace
I hope your God is real, so he can cast you all to hell to get what you deserve
Read your book yourself without the mindless drivel you constantly spout
Amen…pun intended
Read the whole Constitution.
Who’s talking about sin. It’s about discrimination.
Yup, and the bible was never used as an excuse to support the oppression and slavery of black people
…oh wait
Typical moronic leftist logic. Clue: Gays not being able to marry does not in anyway compare to slavery.
No one equated slavery to Gay rights,
A logic test involves trying multiple instances to see if your logic is in fact logical
If your logic concerning discrimination doesn’t withstand replacing one form of discrimination with another it probably isn’t logical and you’re probably discriminating
No one has said the gay rights issue is equal to slavery, though that won’t stop you from making the argument that someone did.
It is perfectly reasonable to draw parallels between Slavery, Segregation and Gay Marriage, they are not the same situation but they do involve similar interactions that rational persons can identify
Read the full sentence instead of certain words:
“Replace the idea of gay marriage with civil rights or slavery and see if that logic holds up
Spoiler: It doesn’t”
Your argument is worthless. Slavery was a bad thing but it wasn’t illegal then as it would be today. A vote is not required to know the will of the people on such a long standing issue. When a party publishes its manifesto and that includes support for the constitution and the people vote them in, hey presto the people have just supported that marriage is between a man and women.
Nobody elected this Unity Government. They appointed themselves to keep the party system alive!
There was no vote saying we want it either so why push it ?
The world is standing still around you.
We just continue without you.
Contrary to belief the uk isn’t a champion in this area but followed a lot of other country’s as most folk don’t really care. It’s easier for the U.K. To give its overseas citizens the same deal religion is key in many of them totally different mindset which they honour.
If the Cayman Islands already have the obligation, and our politicians reject compliance, shouldn’t this be a matter for the Ombudsman?
What the hell is Intersex?
It is just a way to refer to everyone else easily
All inclusive for persons who don’t fit the dual split that is used based on phenotypes
Phenotype for those who don’t know in essence means observable characteristics or traits
Bunch of crap if you ask me, why do we have to classify people ? Isn’t being a “human” enough? The LGBT people are always crying discrimination but by deliberately labeling themselves and classifying thems lives they are encouraging discrimination by making themselves a target
Every group identifies themselves distinctly
Why is this any different?
You not liking it doesn’t mean people shouldn’t do it
Where is the Black Caymanian group ? The White Caymanian group ? The mixed Caymanian group ? Since you all want to label groups and equate this to civil rights and the struggle of the races ? If we don’t have the other groups why do you need your LGBTi it whatever it happens to be called today
Caymanian is a tiny tiny tiny group, which is why we don’t see the distinctions you are referring to
Are you just as upset with:
African-American?
Asian-American?
Native-American?
Seems you are only upset with the LGBTQ distinction, maybe you should ask yourself why you are so stuck on that group in particular
probably because they’re closeted. I pity them.
@Anonymous 1:03
because without identity, there is no visibility. Without visibility, there is no voice. A person can have many identities; the key is not to let any one identity define/confine you.
What does the “I” in “LGBTI” stand for? Why cant we use one word to describe the whole “LGBTI” community?
“Iniquity”
The word you are looking for is “queer”, but it is also used as an insult and slur so it isn’t favored by some
the “I” replaces it sometimes you will see:
“LGBTQ+”
and sometimes you will see
“LGBTI”
They mean the same basic thing
Diogenes
It can not be printed
Absolutely untrue. The UK would gladly enforce recognition of gay marriage in Cayman in a heartbeat.
The problem is that the majority of Caymanians are still God-fearing folk and they would not be happy.
The book that they adhere to declares homosexuality to be a gross sin in the eyes of the Creator.
Alden McLaughlin is currently figuring a way around this.
Unfortunately, when he does this, he will realize how insignificant he really is.
The Bible was also used to justify slavery and a host of other immoralities
But you conveniently leave that part out
Cherry-picking hypocrites
Not on Alden’s watch.
Lots of people don’t think this is a human rights issue.
Human rights don’t require public approval for a reason
Actually they do.
Actually they don’t
At the end of the day all democratic rights result from majority action or opinion either in a constitution, law or other agreement by a majority or their representatives. What the majority opposes will eventually be taken down. Your saying so doesn’t create a right.
Suspending the rights of citizens
Almost like that has been done before
It always ends so well
Constitutionally enshrined rights are not amended or diminished by simple majorities.
I don’t understand why the Caymanian Government changes the laws for foreigners, why not tell them if they don’t want to abide by our laws, then kindly leave, and that goes for lawyers too. If the foreigners thinks our laws are no good then why are they here, why don’t they leave on their our and go back to their Countries that they think are better.
Laws are meant to change as necessary and as people’s opinions change
That is the reason why they are able to be amended, repealed and rewritten
Imagine this argument for black people:
“If you don’t like Jim Crow or Segregation then go back to Africa because we aren’t ever changing our laws”
Not that I am forgetting Liberia but that wasn’t quite the same idea
Your logic is flawed nevertheless, why should Caymanians be forced to leave Cayman because you want to discriminate? Yes there are LGBTQ Caymanians and they have every right to suggest changes and have their voices heard they are constituents just like any other group? The MLAs work for the LGBTQ as well don’t forget that
Diogenes
3:15 .i would like to give you a hand shake , I’ve been saying this for years .get back where they come from if they don’t like our laws , but we must change to please every Tom,dick and Harry . Wonder if the premier will allow me a week in his house so I can tell him how to arrange his furniture and where to locate his nice lil bar he has there ? That won’t happen I bet , get some spine and let these people know our laws do not change to please them .thats that .
I agree with you that’s what I did.
Tell us where do you want to send all of the gay born-Caymanians that you clearly don’t even realize exist? How does their right to happiness and love impact your life at all?
That is what they said in Alabama and Mississippi in the 60s.
Precisely
and don’t forget actual slavery before that
they also used the bible to defend slavery just like they use the bible to justify this today
There’s no comparison between slavery and gay marriage.
True, as slavery is still rampant in the Cayman Islands.
You’re extremely wrong
There is no equating slavery with gay rights issues although they are similarities in portions, they are not the same situation
But comparisons are perfectly reasonable because a comparison looks at all the similar portions while still acknowledging key differences ,
Both Slavery and modern day discrimination against gays involve:
– Restriction of legal rights (aka “legal” discrimination), or treatment as second class citizens
For blacks it was segregation and Jim Crow, for gays it is the refusal of minority protections and the limitation of freedoms (such as marriage and other
– Social and cultural stigmas ( also supported and propagated by persons in positions of authority) regarding members of the community:
Both blacks and gays experience their fair share of these, even today
– Opposition by a majority group who control the path to equality:
For blacks it was white people, for gays it is some straight people
-Persons in the majority wanting rights denied to certain people based on their personal morals or beliefs:
(Do I even have to draw comparisons between the two here?)
– Use of the bible (and other religious beliefs and texts) to justify discrimination as moral and correct:
For blacks it was “slaves obey your masters” and for gays it is any number of verses people cherry pick to reference homosexuality
-In the end both Gays and Black civil rights activists are/were fighting for the same end goal, freedom and equality under the law
Whether you actually look at this from a rational perspective is your prerogative, but facts are facts even if you don’t like them.
Again for clarity since you people seem to always try to act like we are, no one is saying slavery is equivalent to gay rights issues they just have similar characteristics
In all actuality the LGBTQ movement was inspired by the Civil Rights movement just like the Civil Rights movement was inspired by Ghandi and others seeking justice and freedom around the world
This is a quote from Mark Anthony Neal an associate professor of African and African-American Studies at Duke University:
“For blacks to deny gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and transgenders, full citizenship is to turn our back on the very legacy of civil rights that so many fought and died for throughout the 20th century.”
In conclusion unlike you my beliefs are backed with this magical thing called evidence, not just what my mother or father brainwashed me to believe as a child, I can think for myself and I can make rational thoughts all on my own
Diogenes
–
Diogenes,
While I 100% agree with you that there are comparisons to be made (despite slavery and discrimination not at all being the same thing), I think we must acknowledge that the comparison isn’t getting us anywhere, and that those who don’t see the similarities and are offended by the comparison will not come to any greater understanding through continuing to make the point.
There are a million other reasons why opposing gay marriage and LGBT people is abhorrent and immoral that have nothing to do with the similarities inherent in all forms of discrimination. The way I see it, we’re distracting from the core issue—that Caymanians are being marginalized and forced to leave the country of their homes because of something as simple and fundamental as who they love.
Love is love
is love
is love
is love.
It is a defined civil obligation, not a human right (unfortunately). Being an idiot politician has become an art form in these “kind” Islands. Wait for the lawsuit or sanction followed by the inevitable 180 policy shift. Bermuda offers a second class recognition that, as flawed as it is, remains years ahead of the Cayman Islands policy direction.
Dear Leo,
Dem iz a lot ‘a “legalities”…
Hi there. I am an 80’s baby that was born in the Cayman Islands.
In my lifetime to date, I have watched the population of my country increase by more than 100% (more than double), with almost all being by way of immigration.
Therefore, I find it ironic that you would appeal to a country which, in the same period of time, has experienced a population increase by barely 10% which, nonetheless, led to a monumental U-TURN by way of a democratic Brexit referendum led from a platform of anti-immigration.
You are a learned man, I believe in the area of law, but I wish you will one day arrive at the understanding and respectful position of appreciating the most basic concepts of democracy.
I.e. The UK is democratically and culturally xenophobic whereas Bermuda (and Cayman) are democratically opposed to the Brits’ cultural approach to homosexuality – specifically, gay marriage.
However, the respective attitudes to immigration and foreigners could not be further apart as proven by the relevant statistics.
Furthermore, I cannot recall a single case of murder of a gay Caymanian in their country, yet we can name MANY cases of murdered foreigners in Britain (with a female MP falling victim on the lead up to and a few others in the immediate wake of Brexit), not to mention British-born ethnic minorities.
My point is, kindly get over yourself. Democracy and culture is clearly nuanced far beyond legalities and when we assess the reality, you are way out on a limb with this one.
Lastly, when not firewalled by their insincere, facade of a politically-correct government (Brexit referendum), the British people and their collective culture is hardly suitable to be the North star of my Caymanian community.
Sincerely,
Whodatis
Methinks that much “learning” hath made you mad! ?
methinks he doth protest too much.
Isn’t this truly ironic, you hiding behind the “democratic right” Cayman has to discriminate when no vote was held (in fact the government refused to hold an referendum on the issue for fear of seeming to support it, and for the international backlash the islands would likely face if they publicly supported discrimination)
Of course you will never admit there is no national mandate by the people, too busy attacking the UK as bad as things may be at the very least they had a vote and listened to their people which is miles ahead of our government
You can continue to frame brexit as a vote against immigrants when it was actually a difference in opinion with the EUs policies (on various fronts including but not limited to immigration)
Sad to see someone who parades around like an intellectual, actually have so many half truths and knowingly use misconceptions to back his arguments
We ought to be aspiring to be better than the UK and EU, not defending our shortcomings by deflecting and then saying it is our right to do so
This argument falls apart when scrutinized by any rational thinker, yet you act like it is some be all, end all
Discrimination comes in more forms than straight up murder, you’d think a country filled with black persons would understand that concept
Exactly.
A child-like argument from someone clearly refusing to look from the perspective of others unless he can use it to supplement his own view
“They misbehaved, so we can too!!!”
That argument doesn’t work in primary school and it sure as hell won’t work in real life
Grow up
Whose that addressed to?
Most of Who’s posts follow a pattern of justifying a race to the bottom and he seems to think that makes him pro-Cayman/Caymanian.
Truly quite bizarre.
“kindly get over yourself “, do us all a favour and heed your own advice.
Highly predictable Whodribble. 100% increase in Cayman population- result 30,000 more people. 10% increase in UK population result 6,000,000 more people, but don’t let that get in the way of a good moan about nothing more than a xenophobic and anti LBGT ramble. It even reads as if you are trying just to think of excuses to hate stuff…Chill man, in this place where you were raised with good Christian morals (allegedley), love thy fellow man.
From all that talk of Brexit your not Caymanian or you need to leave the Uk and go live where you feel accepted. The european union in itself is a racist community run by whites for the protection of whites. It has even threatened some Caribbean countries to not work with England who was founded and made great by black and Brown people.
Due to the influx of europeans black and brown people are the highest refused nations at immigration and find it even harder to get a visa.
Also, within employment the europeans are in better management positions than Black people who are even first and and second generation black.
The only people bothered about Brexit are whites who cant be bothered to follow rules of law and democracy, how many black people feels safe to walk around racist europe.
As much as I am sick of Cayman constantly bashing Jamaica and other ex-pats leave them alone and stop trying to continue with your forefathers need to dominate and civilise the world to what you believe it should look and sound like. If your not happy stay elsewhere and Leave Cayman alone,
Whodatis, you can’t even write intelligible English. THINK before you start tapping away, for God’s sake.
WhoDatLaugh… Thanks for another great laugh bro! Whatever you’re taking, order me a double!
Dear Whoeveryouare,
I wish I knew who you were to have a face to face level headed discussion. There have in fact been murders of gay Caymanians, maybe never identified or even solved but they have happened. But whether they have been physically harmed or not, it is nearly as bad to feel that you are banished from your own country of birth because you are ostracised even in little ways by a preference that you were born with. Suppose you felt deeply uncomfortable in your own country because you had a physical deformity that your were mocked for and subjected to crude jokes over. Suppose it was just because of the colour of your skin. Yes I know it didn’t happen here to a great extent but it has happened very much so in many places in the world. Would you feel the same way as you do on this issue if a “foreigner” stood his ground against a perceived majority to help free you from such discrimination or worse?
I don’t known the genesis of your anti brit perspective but as Caymanians many of us have had our flashes of it and more but usually it stems from the way we feel unfairly treated by one or more of them. It seems ironic then that you feel that way now because one of them is doing something positive and standing up for our fellow Caymanians. Caymanians who are only different from you and I in the sense that they were born a child of God with a different sexual preference. Having criticized some british expats in the past for their arrogant and rude attitudes towards “the natives” including the British Government, I am sure as hell not going to join you in criticising them when they do something positive and finally stand up and fight for the rights of some of my fellow Caymanians particularly when the majority will not join them. It is always the case that the minority deserves protection from the majority and the weak deserve protection from the powerful. That is why we are a nation governed by the rule of law and not by the whims of a mob. And that is why this can never be simply a case of democracy at work in the sense of the will of the majority or the powerful. With the greatest of respect, it is absolutely unacceptable that “Democracy and culture is clearly nuanced far beyond legalities”. If that was correct we might unfortunately still have slavery today and women would still be relegated to cleaning house and doing the washing and neither empowered democratically to do anything about it.
I hope I have explained where I am coming from and I leave you in peace.
Well “Who” ever you are. We can agree at some things.
If you are a male and I should meet you when you have completed the above speech I would kiss you if it would not be so queer. (Yes I am a male alpha type. )
Your anti Brit this time has no BS just realistic facts.
All the pun intended.
Laws have the ability to reflect the overall mindset and beliefs of a nation. While I agree, as a human rights issue, same sex marriage should be legalised, the heavy backlash from such a law being passed >>>at this time<<< would be enormous.
People have to be gradually educated on such a fact that voids their negative/wrong beliefs on the matter. While I don’t think it’s LGBTI’s role to fulfill said purpose, politicians and lawmakers should definitely be the mediators and activists in this situation, both non-LGBTI and LGBTI.