Campaigns polarize over port
Angela Martins for SaveCayman
(CNS): With the closure of the public consultation on the draft environmental impact assessment, the final report from the consultants will soon go before Cabinet for a decision against the backdrop of polarized campaigns in opposition and support. The EIA has revealed not only significant devastation for the capital’s marine environment but also a massive economic threat to the dive tourism product.
As the SaveCayman campaign (www.savecayman.org) makes significant headway, a group of merchants pressing for the project is also mounting a public campaign to persuade the public that the destruction of the reefs will not be as extensive as the EIA suggests and that without the piers, taxi drivers and tour operators will soon be out of work.
But with winners and losers on both sides, one local businessman who has shares in both a tender operation and one of Cayman’s oldest dive resorts has said that, in the end, this battle is about the economics of the environment.
Adrien Briggs, an owner and founder of Sunset House, said he will be directly affected by whatever decision is made regarding the port and has made it clear he is a 50/50 owner with Attlee Bodden in a local tender business that services the cruise lines. But, he said, they could sell off the fleet tomorrow and his concern is “the irreversible damage this project will cause”, not just to his tender business or resort but for other business owners here and generations to come.
“Sunset House was the sixth hotel on island when it opened and the only one of the six that still operates today, and all because of the precious dive sites situated immediately in front of the hotel,” he said.
Those sites are among a list of dive reefs and wrecks that will either be directly destroyed to make way for the piers or gradual destroyed, during the construction period and after because of turbidity.
“We are the last Caymanian-owned hotel in Grand Cayman and if this dredging process were to take place it would probably be the end of the last Caymanian hotel,” Briggs warned. “All hotels will lose business.”
Coral reef within George Town Harbour (Photo by Courtney Platt)
Briggs pointed out that over the years thousands of visitors to Sunset House have come back time and time again because of the natural wonders and beauty of Cayman’s environment. A founding member of the old Cayman Islands Watersports Association (CIWOA) and its president for over six years, Briggs said it was instrumental in the development of the Marine Parks and the permanent moorings at dive sites which have protected them from anchor damage. Briggs said he is part of SaveCayman for much more than financial reasons.
“My motivations are not financial gains, and I do not oppose the building of a cruise ship dock. I am against the irrational and blatant disregard for the environment if we put a dock where experts have already established it will have far more negative impacts than positive,” he added.
The group of downtown retailers who are backing the proposal have suggested that the damage will not be as great as the EIA indicates. However, Courtney Platt a diver and well-known local photographer is desperately concerned that the creation of cruise berthing in the face of such devastating environmental loss will be even worse and ultimately a self-defeating and costly project.
“It is galling to hear the proponents claim that little of value will be spoiled by this project,” he said in the wake of claims made by supporters of the project.
“Nobody making such a claim could be familiar with the reefs and wrecks in question and how much they contribute to our tourism. This is a significant piece of our marine park, any new fish replenishment programme we may launch and a unique tourism attraction. I am assembling images to educate non-divers about the amazing beauty and marine habitat that is directly in harm’s way within the harbour. I wouldn’t be fighting this if there wasn’t so much to lose,” he told CNS.
Devil’s Grotto (Photo by Courtney Platt)
Angela Martins, a former director of tourism, has also recorded a powerful video about why the government should not press ahead with the project.
She pointed out that the two main products that are sold to cruise tourism visitors are Stingray City and the George Town dive sites, which will be devastated. Talking about the value of Cayman’s environment to the tourism product, she said the shore diving is a major selling point for the jurisdiction for stay-over and cruise visitors, which will be irreversibly destroyed.
“Do we understand that the product that we market now will not exist? So then what?” she asked, querying what our legacy be if government decides to build the piers.
Meanwhile, as the SaveCayman website and Facebook pages draw in more and more supporters who want to protect the reefs, almost four hundred voters have signed the SaveCayman petition to trigger a referendum on the topic and there are more than 4,000 names on the broader open petition asking government not to go ahead with this project.
Category: development, Local News, Marine Environment, Science & Nature
This cruise ship dock is so short sighted. Who will want to go to Grand Cayman if the reefs like Sunset, and Eden Rock are gone? I have brought my family to Grand Cayman almost every year for 30 years and we come for the shore diving. We are SUSTAINABLE, repeat business that will sadly have to find a new paradise since this one will be paved with a boat dock! Please stop this insanity before your economy is ruined by a few greedy people who don’t care about the reason people visit Cayman today.
Cuba has better whores than cayman anyway
Cuba is going to take over a portion of the stay over business too, with more to do, cheaper food etc and good hotels in Havanna. Plus the whores are top notch too.
Ok, here it is…Forget the dock, improve the tendering and build small tender landings along the Georgetown coast. 4 is my ideal number and mainly because we have 4 established anchorage positions in the harbor. We still have the North Terminal and the South Terminal as well to accommodate extra cruise ship days. Now, install 4 large moorings in the 4 anchorages. Probably would have been done years ago to save the coral but I think people may have been thinking dock back then. With moorings you don’t need docks so they didn’t go in. Now we can install them and stop the anchoring and chain dragging that is spread around the harbor. Installation and maintenance will create jobs that don’t exist now. Now, that we will have limited anchor chain and anchoring damage to specific areas of the harbor, go out to the drop off and vaccum dredge the coral rubble off the substrate, just the coral rubble and powder, not the sand. This substrate is ready for natural reseeding of coral spores. It is not man made material that must seasoned for coral to attach to but actual coral skeletons. New coral will attach and grow on this type of material very quickly in coral terms. In years to come, as the coral on the wall and peaks flourishes, on non-cruise ship days, divers will come by the boatload to see the drop off. The peaks and valleys here are spectacular and very shallow, in some places as shallow as 60′. I realize this is really a pipe dream but I also realize that it is possible to do. Now is an opportunity with community focus on a proposal that will forever ruin this underwater gem, to actually go in the opposite direction and resurrect it….I’ll have another puff…..
Red Flag……….You are puffing the good stuff. We have to think outside the box with this need to increase cruise numbers.
The Cayman Islands tendered 1.82 million cruise passengers in 2003 and in 2006 we tendered 1.93 million, today we are around 1.37 million so there is no question that tendering is more than capable for 2 million cruise ship passengers per year.
The idea of fixed moorings is the right solution to coral damages, although I think six would be a better number and allow for some flexibility on peak days. It is a fact that moorings have worked for the large tankers that that deliver gas for umpteen years without mishap.
I also agree with multiple tender landings. 1) Those doing shore diving can land on the south side of town, closer to the shore dive sites in that area.
2) Those doing the shopping excursions at the duty free shops in town can land at the South Dock, within walking distance.
3) Those passengers who are doing the seven mile beach excursions and Camana Bay shopping excursions can land on the North side of Town at the Lobster Pot or Pagent Beach area and taxi to their destinations.
4) Those excursions that visit the Turtle Farm, Hell, Dolphin Discovery, North Sound fishing, Batabono restaurants or Stingray City could land at Northwest Point………remember this was the recommendation of the cruise lines when Boatswains Beach was expanded and not having the landing down there is one of the reasons it now loses so much money.
These landings should be properly constructed, air conditioned with seating facilities and each should have areas for clearing of passengers to speed this process.
The tendering company as well as the cruise ship companies should be asked to contribute at least 50% of the cost of these purpose built facilities, after all, it is their clients that will are asking for and benefiting from, a more pleasant disembarkation and embarkation experience. The cruise ships will benefit from selling more excursions in Cayman and the tender company will benefit from the capacity to transport more passengers.
Lastly……everyone is clamoring about having the Oasis class stop at Cayman once per week, because they carry 5,400 passengers……. while the ones that now stop four days a week carry 2,800 to 3,600 passengers……………Do the maths.
If Government can get one more regular cruise ship to stop each of the 4 days day, like we had in 2003 and 2006, then we actually get 582,400 to 748,800 passengers per year increase, instead of only 561,600 if both Oasis ships stop here once every week……….all this without dredging or overcrowding George Town.
Our total for the year would also surpass 2 million for the first time in history so the Duty Free shops would have nothing to complain about.
Brilliant!
This cruise ship port idea must be opposed and not allowed. If built it will only be short term gain for long term pain. Look at all the Caribbean islands that built cruise ship docks and see who has benefited from them.
The old saying “If all your friends jumped off a bridge, would you jump to?” comes to mind in this whole debacle. Look at our neighbors and what has happened to them since they followed orders from the Cruise Lines. Why on Earth do you want to do the same thing? The evidence is over whelming against this idea and they need to bin it. End of story.
If the cruise lines are to be believed the one thing they want the most is more destinations – http://www.miamiherald.com/living/travel/cruises/article1959461.html
If they are also genuine about customer comfort and experience, this all add up to stabilising or even decreasing the numbers in any given port. So take a hard look at the business case for this development. Is even the 1% increase really a likely scenario? We should be asking ourselves how can we best maintain our prime attraction, not looking for ways to justify destroying it.
In the long-term, when every island port and destination is featuring the same artificial infrastructure and an inevitably negatively impacted environment, the one that managed to escape the (by then) typical mistakes, will be the most desirable to visitors – and its natives.
Of course between now and then this would result in fewer bottles of perfumes, platinum necklaces and rum-cakes being sold – but that is a small sacrifice. (Hopefully).
The only certainty regarding the cruise berthing proposal as is, is the damage, dredging and disturbance that will accompany its construction. EVERYTHING ELSE is uncertain, subject to change, and for the most part, beyond the control of CIG and the rest of us Caymanians.
*What I find perplexing is the emotional wave of nostalgia every time a photo of the area from decades earlier is posted to Facebook or other social media, yet many of us are quick to embrace such irreversible, unnatural and massive eyesores in the heart of our (now barely) naturally-beautiful waterfront.
For the above reasons, and a few more, I am totally against the cruise-berthing proposal in its current format. However, as the saying goes, everything is clear in hindsight. Therefore, it is a wise person that throws his perspective into the future and takes a look back at times like these.
(We need to look beyond our personal reasons and perspectives in this regard. For example, many are against the port on the basis of the destruction and disturbance it will bring to the surrounding dive sites. Personally, I have never scuba dived, and doubt I will anytime soon, however that does not mean I should not share the concerns of those that do.)
“NO” to the proposed cruise-berthing port!
– Whodatis
@Whodatis – Very well said. Thank you for expressing so eloquently what I was not able to!
Thank you for the words of support.
This is the most sensible thing you’ve ever written! Has someone hacked your account?
😉
No buddy, it’s all yours truly.
– Whodatis
Why can we put floating dock which it is millions of dollar cheaper and no damage to any reef.
Look up the word Nor’Wester.
All one has to remember this is now a Cayman Brac run “government” where the minister and his chief officer and other underlings and their family interest do not really care what happens to Grand Cayman because their vested interest is to see Cayman Brac flourish their actions in government has made that quite clear to all. No diving in Grand Cayman means more for the sister island pristine dive sites.
I’m actually quite surprised that nobody has suggested the obvious alternative to the dock – building a Labadee/Amber Cove style resort on the Brac. It makes a heck of a lot more sense than re-developing GT and might put some of the money where it would do some good. I’ve never rated the diving on the Brac very highly and as a stayover destination it’s turned into a disaster area so why not go that route?
When the cruise lines build a huge all-inclusive resort like Labadee or Amber Cove, they get nearly all the money that their “captive” tourist spends. Believe me, the cruise line is in control!
Having the opportunity to dive the Brac last year I found it to have great ‘shallow’ diving. At least as good as either Grand or Little.
1:19 when you’ve done a bit more diving you’ll realise how dumb that comment sounds. I first dove the Brac in September 1992 (in fact I’ve still got Ed Beaty’s videos from that trip) but now, approaching 23 years later and with several more trips out there behind me, I realise it isn’t much more that good/average diving. To put it on par with LC is just daft! The other problem with the Brac (and probably what killed the stayover trade) is that you pay five-star rates there for two-star service and accommodation. I remember Divi Tiara when it was in fairly good shape and it was still a dump.
10:28 that’s a very fair comment but the resorts still generate income and jobs for local residents. These are two things the Brac is currently very short of.
An issue that seems to be ignored is the need to improve & increase the cargo capicity of The Cayman Islands. This is going to need to happen at some point. We cannot grow & survive with the present capacity. This wil likely also require some deepening of the harbour. Combining a cruise pier (of some type) with improved cargo would be extremely beneficial. Larger cargo ships will be required as our population grows. Larger ships lowers the costs of shipping and therefore the price of goods (for tourists & residents). Maybe both sides of this debate should join forces to see how to make the best of a rough situation so that we can all benefit into the future. A shouting match does not solve anything.
I call bullsquit on this recurring argument. Right now cargo ships come in 2 or 3 days a week and the vessels are NOT full… We are less than 50% capacity based on this… There are 7 potential arrival days in a week… When we have full ships arriving 6-7 days a week, then the port is too small… And that is when we double or triple the population and we know how everyone feels about that.
There is no enhanced cargo offloading capability or added crane capacity with the proposed cruise piers. This is a bogus argument that keeps popping up from Kirkconnell camp to conflate the issue. GT port has spare capacity as it is for decades.
Find another place. One finger dock in Red Bay, Capable of two of the biggest boats at a time. That dock will be full 365 days a year (well 310, lets not be open Sundays, Christmas and Good Friday) The overflow can use tenders in the harbour.
The commute time into GT , if a port is located in Spotts or Red Bay, will be a disaster. Take 15,000 tourists in buses carrying 20 or so passengers would require 300 mini buses added to the normal rush hour traffic. Work it out before you press on with this and calculate how many miles of buses will be the result.
If the pier is built, they should introduce a pier tax on all the town down shops to help pay, as they will have the majority of the increase in revenues, why should people in east end, Bodden town, etc. pay towards something they will see little benefit from.
We will serriuosly get so many more visitors than at present to pay the huge amount for the dock? especially when you destroy the thing the visitors come to Cayman to see? The proponents just want to make GT the same as every other destination.
In a global trend of environmentalism and ecotourism, Cayman decides it doesn’t want those tourists just jewelry shoppers
The dock is to be paid for by the cruise lines not the CIG…
Really? You must be the only person privy to this information, because the Cruise Lines have not said a word about this, I wonder why……? You are completely off your rocker if you think they are paying anything for this. We will. We will pay money we don’t have to destroy our the most bountiful resource we have as a Country and then we will pay for it when the Ships do not turn up and nor do any Divers because we destroyed our marine environment that they all come here to enjoy in the first place. And the effect on SMB with this project is still a big question mark, we would be doomed if that were to disappear.
11:55 The investment in the dock will only be repaid by the cruise lines if these three conditions are met –
1. The project comes in within the projected budget and the chances of that happening are just about zero.
2. The cruise lines meet the projections for cruise arrivals over the next 20 years and that’s a very long while. I bet most of the older representatives of the pro-dock lobby won’t be around in 2038/9, which as far as I can see is roughly the break even target.
3. The projected negative impact on stayover tourism is as low as projected and that seems unlikely.
The cruise lines expect CIG to fund this. To date not one of them has offered any funding or made any indication that they have any long-term commitment to using the dock and there’s a good reason for that – Cuba.
Similarly the waterfront business owners talk big but won’t put up a cent to back this project. They simply want someone else to put up the money to protect their interests. I also suspect that some of the potential contractors who stand to make $millions from the development are quietly backing the pro-dock campaign.
I’m not saying that the anti-dock campaigners are 100% on the level but at least their interests are not directly connected to how much money they are going to make from the development.
I am going to say some things on the Grand Cayman Cruise Port Development plan. I can not agree with the current plan. Firstly in order to bring in RCCL’s Oasis of the Sea class cruise ships well they have a draft of 31 feet which means that the bottom depth has to be be at 35 feet minium in order for them to come in to a berth safetly. This is why they have to sail from Ft. Lauderdale’s Port Everglades and not Miami’s Dodge Island which the the main channel there is at 28 feet, Port Everglades has a depth of 43 feet, at low tide. So for that means Georgetown Port has to be dredged to a depth of at lest 40 feet. This does mean that some of the coral reefs in the George Town area will be gone! Talking about sites like Soto’s reef, the Cali wreck and the Balboa wreck, Eden Rock reef also will be affected also. How bad is not known for sure. These are some of our most easily accessible reefs to reach from shore and can be done by both Divers and Snorkelers both to enjoy! The risk is too great for our Island! To gain some economic benefits with these huge ships is not worth what a lot of people come to Grand Cayman for!
I have been listening and reading both sides of the issue, but I haven’t really heard the issue with the depth of the water or bottom that these ships must operate in. This is why I’m stating it here, so that it can be public. Also please think of what that bottom depth will do to the waves that will come when we have Nor’westers, remember that South and North Church Streets are sometimes close when we have some bad Nor’westers. I belive it will be more higher waves if this cruise dock goes through as planned.
This cruise dock needs to be redone somehow that will not give such a major risk to the reefs that is bringing those people to us in the first place. I hope I have given you all some extra understanding of this propose cruise dock.
Good comments, Mr. Parsons. You cover some interesting points, and I agree with you. Personally, I still see no reason to spend millions of dollars for an un-needed dock. The tenders conduct their services nicely.
If you read through the technical parts of the EIA it clearly states that there is not threat to surrounding areas. It actually suggests there may be a reduction in threat of wave activity during storms and hurricanes due to the structures of the dock blocking waves. The current proposal starts the dredging in 25 ft of water so the actual max dredging is only 10 ft going down to 35ft. All other proposals before brought the ships closer to shore. Current proposal gives the following compared to other proposals before: 22% reduction in project footprint, 39% reduction in dredge footprint, 38% reduction in footprint on reefs, 54% reduction in dredge volume, 71% reduction in disposal volume. Page 6 of the non-technical summary.
Put down your pipe 8:52, put it down.
In deep water, a wave can be just a few feet high and travel very fast. As it nears the coastline, and moves into shallower water, waves usually slow down, but the wave height grows.
The cruise ship customers ONLY visit Grand Cayman because the ship does….Otherwise, most of them never would. The ships dock, they spew their passengers on to the streets they overcrowd the beaches, and then they re-board move on to another spot. Go ahead…. Pack as many cruise ships in as you can… let’s flood the dive and snorkle sites with as many people as we can and fill the streets and shops with customers to the point that your beautiful island destination loses its alure. You might find that the longer term visitors who love the island now find another place to call their island destination. I know I will. Just sayin….
The floating dock was still the best potion in my opinion. They should reconsider that one.
Let’s think about costs here. CIG spends how much in marketing stay-over tourism every year DOT budget close to $20m and Cayman Air subsidy another $20m (for what government calls “strategic tourism routes”). How much do they spend promoting cruises in Cayman? That’s $40m every year that is directly geared to Stay-over, you know how many docks you could have built with that over the years?
That is a good point. It means that over the years CIG has effectively put its money where our mouth is. Stay-over tourism that is, the economic benefits of which far outweigh those of cruise tourism.
Interesting to see the pictures on this article to be nice caves (which there are non around the dock) with snappers and little fishies about the be destroyed by greedy humans. But none of a potential dock that could turn out to be beautiful, not harmful to Cayman that perhaps can offer a lot of employment to Caymanians highlighting the other sides’ argument….
Just a bunch a hysterics, misinformation and doomsday typical BS of development destroys everything. Whoever is peddling that this dock is going to damage “Cayman’s” eco system obviously hasn’t dove around the island. There is plenty of reefs around this island. Besides the major portions of the reef can be moved if need be. The hysterical doomsday says KNOWS this at they are doing it NOW! its called reef restoration.
Those same bunch of people are attempting to ban fishing of any kind practically anywhere near and insides the reefs in the name of the ECO system, global warming and you name it. I’m all for the environment, but I’m not if if it means destroying economical opportunity for everyone especially in the lower income bracket for eco wackyness.
It amazing to see how many people fall for a bunch of utter nonsense with a bunch of guilt ridden emotional load of garbage.
Do you think the diesel guzzling boat tenders are eco friendly!? SERIOUSLY??
you don’t think the leaking oil and harmful bilge chemicals (oils, cleaning products) for decades in the precious the reef?? What about seaboard and other other Cargos coming in and out? What about the rain water carrying the toxic materials from town, and the cars washing into the ocean water by the waterfront?
Yeah, its easy to say STOP THE DOCK when you good with cash and have a job. There are others that NEED this dock in desperately.
Interesting comments, Anonymous 9:57. You have a nice writing style and seem well educated. Can you tell us why you use “Anonymous” instead of your real name?
By the way…….. I am very much opposed to the spending of money we don’t have to harm the environment that we presently DO have.
The picture of the cave is Devil’s Groto, which is by Eden Rock and will be destroyed as it is in GT harbour.
There are plenty of beautiful caves and coral heads there.
By building the dock you will be destroying a key reason the tourists come ashore.
you think the cruisers will come ashore just to visit exactly the same jewellery stores that are in every other port they visit?
Dear Anonymous, Put your name where your mouth is if you feel you are telling the truth. Until then I shall assume that you know nothing. Dredging actually covers, destroys, and otherwise wrecks the bottom WHERE THE CRUISE PEOPLE GO. Who cares where YOU dive? We care that the cruise visitor has a beautiful experience. Otherwise, the cruise ships will stop coming and then where would be all be. No one wants to stop income and jobs, but when you reduce the excursions that the ships can sell on board, that is when they quit coming.
It is clear that you have not read the environmental impact assessment that the Cayman Islands contracted and paid for. It contradicts most of what you say and shows you to be totally unable to comment. I cannot believe that you actually think they can move a reef. Where would you put such a shallow reef as Sotos Reef and the Balboa and the Cali, and Eden Rocks??? If you had any understanding of the reality you would know that this cannot be done. Just like you cannot move even a single story, concrete building in George Town to a new location intact and you certainly cannot move it while the occupants are still inside.
Regarding fishing zones, wake up!! Every single place in the world that has set aside adequate replenishment zones has resulted in fisherman getting more fish in the rest of the area. If you cannot look that up yourself, I will get you lots and lots of references.
Now, you are right about all of the other pollutants. So why don’t you get going and try to help stop all of that. We are not so fanatic as to go belly up for things that cannot be stopped, but we can be concerned about a false need. The ships will not stop coming if we do not build a dock. What will happen, is that the cruise guests will be less and less interested in our murky water and then maybe ships will stop coming.
What we actually do need, is a port facility that can better handle the clearance formalities, so that the cruisers can board more quickly. That can be built on land without permanently destroying the very reefs that help produce more fish for fishermen.
What on earth do you do for a living that needs this monstrosity that may well wreck the economy down town when they stop coming. A dock does not make the destination. The value of the destination draws the ship with or without a dock.
Signed, Cathy Church, a expat Caymanian who evidently loves this island more than you do.
Please don’t destroy Caymans’ underwater beauty for revenue!! The Reefs are one of reasons we come to the Caymans. Cruise Ships and the Tourists pollute and destroy the oceans, keep them from ruining on of the most pristine places on earth. Preserve nature and your dignity.
Thanks for your comment and concern. However, you do not “come to the Caymans”. There is no such place. You come to The Cayman Islands. Just like The Virgin Islands. Unless you also refer to that country in conversation as “the Virgins”.
@4:37 – Really? You think people don’t refer to ‘The Cayman Islands’ as ‘The Caymans’ – Does leaving out the ‘Island’ really subtract from our islands? No need to be so petty.
When the docks are built, the face of George Town harbour will be changed without being able to go back to how it was. I drove by North Church St yesterday & looked out to the large Carnival ships & others moored, tried to visualise what this will look like with the dock & 5 ships alongside. The view was not nice. Literally thousands of people streaming ashore
& what the taxi & bus scenario will be like moving them around , pure chaos from what the chaos even feels like today. What will the land based toilet & bathroom facility be like to walk inside ? Words actually escaped me to put to how much of a mess this will be for down-town & I even put the environmental picture aside for a minute, to actually focus on what the above water scene will be like. Utter madness for the government to push the proposal ahead. For all the locals behind the venture for what-ever reason is claimed , be careful for what you wish for , you will receive more than you bargained for from Alden .
And from South Church St., you will never be able to see West Bay again………
Holy Sh*balls Red Flag! Do the 4 ladies from West Bay know this yet?
Ha! Ha! I knew that was easy to misconstrue. I meant it as a downside to the dock. The view across the harbor is beautiful from there…West Bay just happens to be at the other end..
I bet Alden would like that!
i guess that is one upside
And from West Bay we will never be able to see South Church St again.
Ha! Ha! I knew that was easy to misconstrue…but I really meant is as a downside because the view from there across the harbor is beautiful…West Bay just happens to be at the other end.
The dive sites on Town are shore accesed therefore you wont see boats. Balboa cant be used while ships are in. But ask any dive center that plans a night dive on it if their boats are empty. Ive personally been on 3 night dives and 2 day dives on that site and the amount of sea life that resides on that wreck is astounding. And to answer your question. All of those boats were full to capacity.
People need to realize that EVERYONE benefits from cruise tourism, not just the taxi drivers, tour operators and merchants.
Cruise tourism pumps millions of dollars into the economy, and we can’t simply afford to walk away from the revenue it creates. Every major destination has a port with the exception of Cayman. we cannot afford to sit back and do nothing.
Fair comment but building the dock still gives no guarantees that the cruise ships will continue to come here. If you are going to commit to this ‘all the eggs in one basket’ option you either need solid commitments from Carnival, RCI and the others to use it for at least the next 20 years of for them to fund it. Right now the cruise dock looks horribly like a $150+million white elephant.
I love it the reason people did not want to change to daylight savings time is because they wanted to remain different from everywhere else, yet now you want to be the same as everywhere else
Dear Anonymous, If you really believed what you say, you would tell us who you are. Why on earth do you think the cruise ships will stop pumping money into this economy. The small ships will keep coming, and there is only one of the really big ships and even those have been tendered in the past. Do you really want to be like the destinations where you just put up with them in order to get to Cayman. That is what I heard on a ship I actually spent a week on. We stopped in Jamaica and most of the people just sort of looked around and went back on the ship. We were not at the regular spot, so I can’t say what the regular stop would have been like. I walked around a little in Cozumel, but none of my fellow travelers were impressed except the ones that booked excursions like the Mayan ruins (which they said was too crowded). We to not have ruins, we do not have waterfalls, we do not have mountains and rivers. We have crystal blue water that people absolutely go crazy about. They love looking at it, they love swimming in it, they love seven mile beach – the best in the world, they love stingray sandbar (which is visited to capacity — you could not fit hundreds more people a day there).
If we pave over the blue water where the cruise people take a lot of their excursions (on the submarine, the glass bottom boats, etc. etc) then those excursions will no longer exist. The cruise ships WANT that money. It is my understanding that they can pay for their entire fuel bill with the income from the shore excursions. You take those away, Mr. Anonymous, and see how fast those ships quit coming!!! Now, put your money where your mouth is. You want cruise ship business, you better not fool with their excursion fees.
They do not care if they board by tender or dock, what they REALLY want is a clearance facility. We can build that on land. We can re-structure downtown to be so beautiful that people from all of the NEW HOTELS will also want to visit and think of all of those jobs and income and money, money, money. All done without destroying permanently the very attraction that lures our guests to our shores.
Smith Cove:
Dear 3:43AM – I disagree. The general population does NOT benefit from cruise ships. We have over 6,000 locals working in Govt and less than 600 working in cruise tourism!!! even if that, it would equal 1% of the population so to have politicians pander to 1% is not “serving the people.”
Sorry, but over 50% of the taxi drivers are on work permits so the local “owners” can run small fleets. STOP granting ANY taxi or tour work permits if locals truly want these jobs?? It is my opinion that less than 5% of our entire population gets a dime from the cruise business. A few “make a mint” but not the average Cayman Joe.
Want LOCALS in tourism? Teach Hotel Management= that is a REAL job. Teach Culinary skills and certified chefs = that is a REAL job, Teach hotel accounting= that is a REAL job. You cannot say there is an entire industry based on “contracted out” blue collar tour bus and boat drivers.
Cruise tourism only supports a tourist tax and the cartel jewelry shops that do NOT even employ locals as retail shop workers- period. Our youth have no future opportunities in the Cayman cruise economy? If I am wrong, please TELL me how my teenager is going to make a decent Cayman-cost-of-living off cruise ships? I am interested.
The only industry that will slow down or go away are the large tour buses and a few less crowded boats to the sandbar. So someone give me accurate numbers (hah!) if even 50 locals actually drive a tour bus? if so, name them….I have seen NWDA & imaginary Immigration stats- give me the petition of actual breathing people names of LOCALS who work in cruise tourism. I bet it is less than 100- I’ll eat my hat if more.
Let’s pull out the truth- the old port boss says we need more cargo docks (ok, do these have to be in George Town?) the Rum cake boss and Duty Free shop owners say we MUST have cruise tourists (um, actually no we don’t- retail is not a successful arm of our economy, but hotels are diving are.)
I still say cruise ships benefit the few, not the masses.
Want a better life for your children? Take the 25 million and DEMAND it goes to vocational programs and better schools- why not year-round school, until “we make the grade” and get our kids college educated.
My vote for my children: “For” College future – NOT cruise future.
How interesting! “The group of downtown retailers who are backing the proposal have suggested that the damage will not be as great as the EIA indicates.” I do not believe these retailers know more about our reefs and marine environment than the people who did the environmental impact study. Let us not do away with our biggest draw, our underwater “Land of Enchantment”! I don’t believe most Caymanians …… or tourists, want to turn Grand Cayman into just another “Tinsel Town”.
If the million dollar merchants with their 300% mark up really want a cruise dock then they should push for a compromise. A floating dock has been proven to work in other places and if it has to be folded away on heavy norwester days then so be it. The cruise ships pass us by on those days anyway. To all those with a vested interest in cruise customers, put up or shut up. If not, you will be deemed to be in the same camp as the politicians that want to exploit the enormous advantages to be had by granting the possibly biggest contracts ever seen in Cayman.
Very well said. But it’s not only that these few (count them on one hand) downtown retailers don’t know more about our reefs and marine environment it’s that they DON’T CARE about them. If they could build a jewelry store or a retail shop on top of the reef, you can be sure that they would.
And yes, having bought up land along the waterfront in anticipation of a cruise pier being built, they now desperately want the pier(s) built because they have a lot of expensive land on hand. If you consider that the prevailing ocean current is predominantly Westerly, then consider where such piers can be built without horrible and permanent marine asset damage being done by drilling, piling, dredging etc. We will always make money from our marine assets as they are now, BUT, if we destroy them, where will the money come from? I pray that our leaders are responsible, and if anyhing, err on the side of caution in this matter. Also, I did not know that owning GT waterfront land made anyone an expert on marine conservation or preservation. LOL.
The reefs in town are being destroyed by the fat American cruise shippers anyway. Build the dam dock to bring in more to destroy the rest I say.
For Adrian Briggs to make any statement against the cruise berthing facility, it’s a “Conflict of Interest”.
Everybody knows that Adrian and Atlee have both made millions and millions of $$$ over the years in the cruise tendering business and at the end of the day, it’s all about the continuation of making a profit and putting up smoke screens to prevent a modern cruise berthing facility being built.
While we are playing politics in the Cayman Islands, Cuba now has it’s eyes on a new horizon. Remember, they don’t need to import labour, they are intelligent people who speaks several languages and are willing to work. All they need is money to be pumped into their economy and off they go big time.
On any given day, count how many dive boats from Sunset House or Red Sail Watersports, you will see with tourists diving/snorkeling in the George Town harbor; where the new cruise berthing facility is to be built ? Very few if any….. I would submit.
If you go on the lower end of Seven Mile Beach, (Kittiwake, Orange Canyon etc..) there you will see Sunset and Red Sail boats, including several in the North Sound and in the South Sound areas.
Please stop the “Conflict of Interest” in the Cayman Islands while Cuba is gearing up to take away our cruise ship industry in about 2 – 3 years time.
If Cuba wants Carnival and their passengers, they can have them. We have thrived on being a higher end destination, and should do all we can to preserve and enhance a high quality experience for our stay over visitors. We have to choose what kind of destination we want to be. We cannot be “all things to all people.” To me the answer is obvious.
How short our memories are! How long did it take for the Island to get back in it’s feet after Ivan with stay over tourism, 6 months, 1 year, 2 years? How long did it take for the 1st cruise ship to come back with paying guests? Less than 2 weeks!! Who benefited most from those tourists coming back? Local taxi drivers and tour operators..! The idea that Cayman can thrive with one source of tourism, stay over is a fallacy. Do not put all your eggs in one basket! So why are people trying to do just that?
I am not suggesting we put our eggs in one basket, only that we stop defecating where we eat.
Holy Cow, there actually are some people with sense on here!
Which one?
And thank goodness we had the tenders that could accomplish that feat! Look at Cozumel? They were shut down for almost three years after their dock was being reconstructed after Hurricane Wilma. How about a little farther South in Mexico after Hurricane Dean? Speaking about putting your eggs in one basket. No one is against cruise tourism… It is the destruction of why cruisers want to come to Grand Cayman is the key issue.
The tenders have served both Cayman and their owners well over the years. Tendering is just not an option for the larger ships. Yes they can logistically be tender if they had to but royal has made it clear they do not think this could lead to a positive customer experience to shuttle 6000 people.
Who benefited from those tourists coming back? The handful of local taxi drivers and the hundred of low paid expat work permits (who the locals farm out the taxi, tour bus, and sandbar boats to??)
If more than 1% (600 people) actually make a weekly paycheck on tourism from cruise ships- please supply THOSE names (not work permits) sorry, the retail shop girls cant even speak English and I take taxis a LOT with visiting financial business visitors and every time I ask the driver, he/she are NOT from Cayman?
Yes, we have a FEW local taxi drivers, but do we BUILD an entire 100 million dollar port to support the CRUISE visitors or do we make Cayman the South Beach instead of Miami Beach of the Caribbean?
Sorry- Belize is 6 times bigger than us, Cuba is 600 times bigger than us, let them have the low spending cruise shippers.
If our resources are limited (dump, small hopsital) than WHY stress it with 10,000 cruise tourists?
I’d rather see nicer hotels, nicer tourism offerings, and less crowded beaches.
At the end of the day, if a true local wanted to make a living in tourism, they CAN- simply do away with the extra work permits to work in a smaller, but better run tourism product.
Only the greedy retail shops and large tour companies actually benefit from cruise docks.
By the way- if every single elected politician pays their OWN WAY to go on a Carnival cruise NOW for 1 week and see: I bet NOT ONE would NOT support the dock!?!
We do not want cruise tourism- we are too small. Better hotels and take the funds for the dock and build a world class culinary hotel management school instead.
The dive sites at Eden Rock (Devil’s Grotto) and Sunset House are mainly beach dives therefore no boats are necessary to reach the reefs. The cruise ship visitors also snorkel / dive these areas without the use of boats so saying that the sites are not used is incorrect.
Hmmm another anonymous writer. 5:12 pm. Are you saying that when Tortuga’s Hamaty and the Kirkconnell family pushes for this monster construction that they do not have a conflict of interest? Moses Kirkconnell is in a very difficult position trying to make this decision. They want the government to experiment with our economy by building a dock for hundreds of millions of dollars. I have no idea how much money Mr. Briggs makes. Is it more or less than the Kirkconnells’? It has nothing to do with this discussion.
Sunset House is the only Caymanian owned hotel on the island and it depends on its shore diving to get the guests to stay there. You can stay at any hotel on the island and get a boat, including those from Sunset House. But when you cannot see far enough underwater to find your way around, when the water looks like muddy milk, your bookings naturally go WAY down. But even Mr. Briggs says that he cares more about the reef than the dollars. He says he can sell the fleet of boats or sell the land at Sunset House and actually make more money. But it believes that the way he runs his businesses is good for the country. He has been transported those cruise ship people to the George Town merchants for many years.
The sad part is that building this dock will not likely help the island economy. We do not have the money to build it, and we are not allowed by the UK to borrow, so we will need a cruise company to build it. And where do you think the dock fees will go then?? Who will build the stores on that 7 acres pad? If the cruise ship builds it, they will likely want the fees. I do not know that for certain, so if you know the facts, enlighten me.
Of course there are boats all over the island. Our stay-over guests will be hurt only marginally. They will no longer enjoy some of our iconic sites like Eden rock when it is filled with silversides. People come from all over the world to see that. But we are not talking here about overnight guests. If we were, we would comment on the fact that three more hotels are in the planning stage. Think of all of the money that will bring!!!
What do YOU do for a living that MUST have the cruise ship dock? Answer that and join an honest debate.
https://cnsbusiness.com/2015/07/08/cruise-ships-coming-to-cuba/
How will this affect future cruise tourism in Cayman? look how quickly these cruise companies shift gears? Who are we building these piers for? They will jump ship if a more profitable destination opens up and will leave us with permanent environment damage and delapidated concrete piers.
MLAs, I know you promised and you mAy lose some votes, but please do what’s right for the long run.
Conveniently no mention of the massive dredging project conducted at Harbour House – also owned by Mr Briggs?
No coral reefs affected here. Back up your argument with some proof that any environmental damage was done there and I may listen to you. Some of our people just like to beat up on successful Caymanians. I am tired of hearing attacks on Mr. Briggs by people who have no real logical argument.
There was not any coral nor any dive sites involved in clearing silt and mud. Now boat owners from overseas can get their large yachts serviced.
Yeah because our visitors are always snorkeling and diving by the entrance to the marina. Further more, it was hardly a “massive” dredging project.
I would love to see you snorkeling in the entrance to Harbor House. Its called expanding a channel to allow for larger yachts to be able to be serviced at the Marina you dimwit, and the proposal to so has been approved for almost a decade if not more.
Dear CPE, You are grasping at straws to think that Harbour House has anything to do with this topic. It is so minuscule as to make your comment look silly and to make it clear that you just have an opposition to Mr. Briggs. Do you have any idea how big this project is? Find someone who has an acre of land and then imagine 32.5 acres of dredging. Have you ever seen a cubic yard of gravel or topsoil? Now visualize 170,000 cubic yards of marl being dumped over the wall during a period of months. Visualize enough additional dredge material to fill in 7.7 acres to make the port pad.
Can you visualize mixing flour into a glass of water and then trying to look through it? Add some milk and then imagine snorkeling and trying to enjoy the scene.
If you have any further comments, please add them, as it appears that you have not yet understood the scope of this project and that you have been bamboozled by the people ready to pretend that this project will help us all instead of creating way too much harm and thus a possible downturn in cruise traffic when the guests no longer buy enough shore excursions to make it worth stopping at little ole Cayman.
“a group of merchants pressing for the project is also mounting a public campaign to persuade the public that the destruction of the reefs will not be as extensive as the EIA suggests and that without the piers, taxi drivers and tour operators will soon be out of work.”
What do those friggin experts know? Trust us, this ain’t gonna be that bad! And what about our taxi drivers? Who’s gonna buy our jewelry and the knick knacks?
Those should be top consideration over the environment that FEEDS us!
Is that all they have to oppose hundreds of pages of analysis by environmental experts?
I think the most disturbing aspect of this whole debate is that there has been no input from the cruise companies. Are we seriously talking about spending $150+ million of public money on a project that has currently attracted absolutely no visible interest from any of the people who will use it?
Let’s put that $150 million in context – Amber Cove cost Carnival a bit over $85 million, they invested $70 million in Labadee and a reported $60 million in the cruise resort on Grand Turk. Allowing for the normal CIG budget over-runs that means that Carnival built three complete resorts for roughly what this cruise dock could end up costing us. Does that make sense to you?
What worries me is that at the end of the day the only ones who stand to benefit from this project are the ‘connected’ people (and we all know who they are) in the consultation and construction business who will build the damn thing.
Interesting but not accurate. Amber Cove, Labadee and Grand Turk are all single pier developments which have been developed with close cruise line involvement. (Labadee is actually an RCI project, not Carnival). However the CI government has been directed to conduct this part of the port development without cruise line involvement at this stage because they are following the terms of the UK government in ensuring the development is transparent. The current proposal costs more than those you quoted because there are 2 piers for 4 ships and also extensive renovations and improvements to the cargo facility. If the CI Govt wish to proceed from here there is nothing stopping them agreeing financing with one or more cruise lines or in agreeing long term preferential berthing rights in return for long term volume guarantees, which is similar to financing but over a longer period.
Interesting reply 11:01 but it misses the main point – these is no commitment, financial or otherwise, from any of the cruise lines to this project and without that there is no case for building the cruise dock. Frankly, your involvement of the ‘UK government’ in this argument is bull. If someone like Carnival or RCI came along with funding I can’t see (nor apparently do you from your final sentence) the FCO blocking it but the fact is neither of them has shown any interest at all in doing that.
As for the comparative costings? They’re all based on building a complete resort not just a pier and Amber Cove is actually a two-berth facility. You could also cite Disney’s Castaway Cay in the Bahamas, which covers 50 acres and is quoted as having cost just $25million. So again the question needs to be asked why the GT facility is going to be so expensive, particularly when to allow for the inevitable budget overruns. Where is all the money going to go?
The reason that there has been no commitment, financial or otherwise is that the current process has not sought to engage any of the cruise lines at this stage. For whatever reason (which I do not understand) the CI and UK governments have sought to enact a process that is cruise line agnostic. This is counter to all of the other developments you mention which have been sponsored by a specific cruise company. It is not possible to compare the two approaches because they are fundamentally different in their approach. If you look at the history of this kind of development in the Caribbean it is inevitable that some kind of financing or long term use agreement will be entered into as that is the only way to finance the overall project. This is the way the Royal Watler got financed by the FCCA and should be expected here.
Amber cove is a one pier, two berth facility as shown on its web site. Castaway Cay is a one berth facility but even so i seriously doubt the whole development only cost $25m. I have been there 4 or 5 times and it is extensive.
With regard to the expense of the Cayman project there is a high degree of transparency and the CI govt has used both an open process and internationally experienced advisors. If they say it should cost that based on local conditions then I would respect that as reasonable.
“it should cost that based on local conditions” lol
@12:12 “there is a high degree of transparency and the CI govt has used both an open process and internationally experienced advisors” You are clearly smoking the bad stuff here.
I can tell you from firsthand experience how the ‘interaction’ between CIG and the cruise lines went. The first question from the CIG representatives was ‘what’s in it for us?’ and at that point the cruise line reps made their excuses and left.
I am looking for intelligent and qualified commentary on this issue to speak on camera for a locally produced documentary. Please contact judy@juse.link if interested. Thank you.
The cruise pier that was built in Grand Turk cost US$35 million, was built by Carnival as a loan to the Turks & Caicos Government and will be fully paid off in 2016, (10 years earlier than originally projected as after the pier was built the projected cruise ships visits/revenues doubled) after which time the Turks government will enjoy full revenues from the pier. Originally projected to be paid off in 2026. The pier is built on beautiful beach land and the dredge lines on either side of the dock has had no effect on the beach or water clarity whatsoever. You can stand on your balcony on board and see fish on the bottom while the ship is docking. Been there, seen it. In fact the last time I was there a couple of months ago while we were docking I was watching a school of jacks or goggleyes running back and forth between the ship and the beach with dozens of barracudas feeding on them, what a sight to see.
@8:25. I was out there when the Grand Turk cruise resort was built and it is a credit to how these jobs can be done with minimal environmental impact. In fact only one dive site was lost and the construction work had minimal effect on the diving.
But you need to bear in mind the history of this project. It was originally intended that the dock was built in the centre of town, somewhere around where the museum is. The outcry against that toppled the government as the former PM admitted to me during a flight to Provo.
You also need to remember that the in water construction there was probably about one-tenth of what is being proposed in George Town. It’s definitely not like for like although there are lessons that can be learnt from it.
I hate to say this but pier or no pier Carnival will be going to Cuba next year…no more needs to be said. Cuba – Cayman, Cuba-Cayman. Cuba will be picked. Prices are better, beaches, more bang for your buck, can’t talk about safety issues anymore in Cayman, Cuba is probably as safe or safer, so Cuba here they come!!!
Carnival have just reached an agreement to put a “specialist” cruise ship into Cuba. Bloody expensive per head but, it is the thin end of the wedge. And think of the “quickie” cruises from Florida to two or three destinations in Cuba. The savings in fuel costs will be enormous.
An excellent observation…Fuel Costs for short duration cruises. That one has not been mentioned. Also food costs for the shorter trips to Cuba, most likely less landing costs per ship also than Cayman. While Cayman has a golden deal in payment for every head on board, whether they disembark or not, that is going to be a huge negotiation point in any dealings on contracts between cruise companies and Cuba.
What did I read this morning? $2990.00 plus tax and fees? Far cry from $799
Keith, when the restrictions are lifted it will be $799 or less. The other thing with Cuba is that you don’t get fleeced for US$2200 for a week in second rate accommodation and six 2-tank dives – check out the rates that UK and European tourists are getting in Varadero. When the country opens up you can kiss the stayover dive tourists goodbye.
Just try and stop a newly liberated Cuban with a speargun from doing to their reefs exactly what the Jamaicans have done to theirs,
In the schedule that I saw, they are going to both Cuba AND Cayman.
Cathy, that’s MSC. They’re sailing out of Havana to GT and Jamaica. Bottom line is the main beneficiary of this is Cuba with the rest of us picking up the scraps. The passengers will fly into Havana, spend more time in Cuba than anywhere else and obviously spend more money there. In addition MSC benefit from the far lower costs in Cuba. It should be a wake up call to everyone.
Carnival said the same thing… Cayman and Cuba together