Gay couple press on with fight for equality

| 09/09/2015 | 142 Comments
Cayman News Service

Dr Leonardo Raznovich

(CNS): Facing deportation after the Business Staffing Plan Board said they did not have the legal framework to add him to his husband’s work permit as a dependent, a former law school lecturer has secured the legal right to stay in Cayman on temporary basis as a visitor. Dr Leonardo Raznovich, who is set to become the standard-bearer here for gay rights, said he and his husband still intend to press ahead with a legal challenge to the refusal but they are currently working with the immigration department in a spirit of cooperation to resolve the key issue.

Raznovich, who is from Argentina, is legally married to a British lawyer who works for a major offshore law firm. The couple have been in Cayman since 2011 and have been in a civil partnership and then a legal marriage for around 16 years. Given that the marriage is legal in both of their native countries, when Raznovich’s contract at the law school was not renewed his husband made an application to the immigration department to add his spouse to his work permit, which is held by his employer, as a dependent.

The couple met the financial and other general requirements, so as far as they were concerned there was no reason why the dependence request should not have been granted, as would be the case for any other married couple that met the criteria. But despite the legal marriage, the request was refused as the board claimed it did not have the legal mechanism to fulfil the request.

Alerted to the refusal on the on-line tracking system last week, Raznovich confirmed Wednesday that they have now received the formal letter of refusal from the board and they are considering their legal challenge. Bound to be a precedent setting case, if the couple are able to secure the support of the courts for Raznovich to become a dependent, it will be an effective recognition in law of same-sex marriage for overseas nationals from countries where same-sex marriage is legal.

However, without legislative change marriage between same-sex Caymanian couples will remain illegal here, regardless of where the couple marries because of the wording of the existing law. This would give rise to a significant human rights question and a conundrum that government will have to face to avoid more costly litigation. But many now believe that the move by Raznovich and his partner will set Cayman firmly on the road at the very least to same-sex civil unions and a major battle against the current legal discrimination against same-sex couples.

Raznovich will in the meantime continue in Cayman as a visitor, which he said means he will need a departure flight each time he enters Cayman and, when required, will need to apply for visitor extensions and leave the jurisdiction until the application to add him to his husband’s work permit is resolved.

“We continue in our discussions with immigration regarding these conditions, but are working with them in the spirit of cooperation until the main issue is resolved,” he said Wednesday as he revealed that he will be sharing the circumstances surrounding the immigration question at an important legal conference next month.

Dr Raznovich, who is also a lawyer and legal academic, has been invited to the International Bar Association (IBA) annual conference in Vienna to present the details of the case and its legal implications.

Meanwhile, Jim Obergefell, the man now synonymous with the landmark US Supreme Court decision on same-sex unions has offered his support to the couple.

In a message delivered via email to Cayman’s local TV station Cayman 27, Obergefell said that the Supreme Court decision was a powerful step forward but the rights of the LGBT community continue to be denied and challenged worldwide.

“Unfortunately, LGBT people everywhere must continue to fight for equal protection, and it is past time for governments around the world to protect the rights of all citizens,” he said.

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Comments (142)

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  1. Anonymous says:

    the more of this crap that I read the more I am ever so glad glad that the framers of the Constitution had the sense, foresight and fortitude to include the section of the document that excludes allowing same sex marriage.
    God bless them all.

  2. Anonymous says:

    If God is who He says He is, then we have most definitely pissed Him off. i have taken every precaution I know to avoid a catastrophe, but I am not confident even now. Educated lunatics should tread very carefully from now.

  3. AGS says:

    I am black and proud but there are several places in the world where people still that believe that black people are not their equal, am I going to those places trying to change those people’s minds about me? No, I just don’t go to those places. I don’t care how many thumbs down I get but if the laws in Cayman don’t suit this man and his partner then go somewhere else where they are more accepting of that kind of thing.

    I am sick and tired of people accusing us of being bigots and intolerant whenever we stand up for what we believe in. When people go to Dubai, are they taking their laws to task about homosexuality? They respect the laws of the land. I am sure they have natives in Dubai who are homosexual but they know it is sin and a criminal act so they don’t flaunt it around, it is a perversion.

    People are repeatedly saying people don’t choose to be gay, they are born that way. They choose to act on whatever thoughts or feelings they have. With that argument all sorts of perversion can be explained away. Pedophiles can then also say they were born with some inclination toward children. People are abhorred by pedophiles but proudly marching around for gay rights. Why is one supposed to be acceptable and the other not? They are both perversions to me.

    I am tired of the UK trying to always force us to accept whatever perversion they chose to accept, talking about human rights. What about my rights? Soon you will have people suing the Cayman Islands Government because they have prayer in schools or because they only teach about heterosexual relationships in sexual education classes.

    People should love and not be quick to judge others but I firmly believe and will continue to do so forever that it is NOT okay for two men or two women to get together because “they love each other”. The anatomy of a male and female dictate what should go where. Can two men or two women naturally procreate? That tells you the natural order of things. I have gay people in my family, I still love them but I don’t condone their life choices or actions.

    Many were abhorred when Mr. Eden made comments about bestiality, his point was that little by little we accept things as normal so soon people will be accepting that as normal too.

    • Fred the Piemaker says:

      So proud of being black, but you shy away from going places where they hate blacks. Bigot or a troll, more like.

      • AGS says:

        The person is proud not stupid. Why put themselves in potential harm’s way by going to places they know do not like blacks? Sounds like you just like controversy.

  4. Just Commentin' says:

    It is distressing/amusing/moronic/hypocritical [choose which apply] to me that so many sanctimonious Bible-thumpers will get their holy knickers in a big tight bunched up wedgie over debating the “gay” issue but I have yet to hear or read the same amount of ire from any of them over our treatment of those poor Cubans who arrive in decrepit boats in their escape of a Godless oppressive regime, and who come to these islands seeking safe harbour in bad weather, or because they are in need of mechanical assistance, or need food, water, supplies, or medical care before continuing on their journey.

    Our godless government made a written pact with Satan agreeing to prohibit good Samaritans among us from rendering these boat people aid, or giving them food or water or shelter or medical treatment to assist them on their way. These are the same hot-air-blowing hypocrites that attend those “Prayer Breakfasts” and hang their heads piously while some solicitous pastor prays big ol’ holy-sounding prayers for “guidance” and “blessing” upon them instead of soundly castigation their godlessness. We, by complicity, have made a pact with Satan that the Cayman Islands will refuse these refugees landing, and if they do land, we have made a pact with Satan promising that these poor souls will be detained and forcibly returned to their previous godless masters.

    Until I see the so-called “Christians” of these islands pour out upon the sin decried personally by Jesus himself in Matthew Ch. 25 verses 32 through 46, the indignation and wrath equal to what they pour out regarding the “gay” issue; until I hear of one or more so-called “Christian” congregations protest loudly and in unity against the ungodly treatment of these people who are risking their very lives to find a better life; until I hear that some group of real gonna-act-out-my-faith-rather-than just-spew-tripe Christians have marched in the streets, gone on strike, and done all their power to see to it that we are able to give food, water, supplies and aid to the Cubans – and not stopping until our godless government amends the agreement we made with Satan; until I hear a series of real fire-and-brimstone sermon about it on the radio or at a so-called “revival”; until I see with my own eyes a real example of some of the sacrificial living that Jesus said those who are truly His people will manifest, rather than just hearing them spew their feel-good platitudes and verses about “love your fellow man” and “godly living”; until then, save your empty words all ye so-called “Christians”, because to me all your words are just vacuous, vain, self-righteous spewings emanating from unloving, uncaring, and basically godless people.

    Here is my suggestion: Next time you so-called “Christians” want a “sin” to rail against; next time you need to express your righteous indignation against something; hey…next time you really want to please God and actually make a DIFFERENCE in someone’s life [and maybe even SAVE a life!] rather than engage in vain arguments here, try seeing to it that we “do unto the least of these” the things God expects us to do. Now, go and read Matthew 25 for a true picture of where you stand in the eyes of the God you so ardently claim to serve. Yea, cast out the beam in thine own eye…

    Silly us! How should we expect that Caymanians will respect human rights when as a country we officially disrespect human dignity and as a people Caymanians officially prohibit the most basic expressions of love and human compassion. The hypocrisy is enough to make me want to puke!

    • Anonymous says:

      I am going to sign your sanctimonious butt up for 2 refugees/ISIS thugs. Come back when you wake up. Your position is scandalous. Please. If you are going to mention the Holy Book, mention it in the spirit of righteousness, not the spirit of politics.

      • Anonymous says:

        Speaking of righteousness, your threatening someone with refugees, who are not ISIS, but fleeing from ISIS is a sacrilegeous offence to the teachings of Jesus. You’d better repent or The Lord might just sink Cayman with a Cat. 5 hurricane and you’ll be a refugee if you even survive.

    • MONSTER says:

      If these people can ´fight´ for ´missing´ rights….THEN and WHEN other ´fights´ begin CIG will be so sorry.

      WE tired of being pushed around, deprived, included in your false perceptions and just blatantly overlooked….Id bet this slack human choice is not an issue for all the HOMELESS in CAYMAN.

      If one cant hear they will surely feel. WE might just have to start a ´fight´ to achieve something of actual substance, purpose and benefit not for one but ALL…instead of a cruise ship port circus, ice rinks and bars, camana bay ´sub-culture´ the list could go on forever…

      Too many are already lost and losing their way everyday by the absolutely empty hearted brady bunch who in control…The day CERTAIN people become targeted is the day WE sure things wont be much of a FIGHT anymore….

      8tray
      Survival is a must homie

  5. Anonymous says:

    I love how the Brits in the room are suddenly so pro-EU when it suits them.
    Get them back home and we’ll hear a different story.

    • Anonymous says:

      Who said anything about the EU? If you think that the human rights references are linked to the EU then you know nothing and should step away from the keyboard.

  6. Anonymous says:

    It must be tragic to need to believe in a fictional construct in order to find a basis for your moral guidance.

  7. Anonymous says:

    I find it really odd that the Christians make no effort whatsoever to set out a logical case for a theistic power. It really ought to be the logical starting point for their arguments on this thread since the assumption that there is such an entity is the foundation of all that follows. But never on these threads do they try to explain that bit.
    PS: The Bible telling you so does not count.

  8. God says:

    Everyone calm down. There is gonna be some smiting going on.

  9. Anonymous says:

    Why come to another’s country and dictate to them the way of life. If you are not pleased, I suggest u go elsewhere. I doubt and I’m absolutely positive that a Caymanian would not go to another’s country to dictate to them.

    • Anonymous says:

      Then don’t. But don’t reall think these people are dictating to you.

    • Anonymous says:

      As I am British, Cayman is my country and I am disgusted by the narrow minded parochial bigotry that is happening on British soil.

    • Anonymous says:

      As a fully fledged Brit with a proper British passport, I demand all Caymanians who disagree with LBGT marriage should leave immediately. The UK accepts LBGT marriage so if you don’t like it, you should leave. You are part of the UK. Get out of my country. How do you like that? Doesn’t sound so good when you are on the receiving end, does it?

      • Anonymous says:

        It is time that the UK told the bumpkins what to do.

      • Anonymous says:

        I am a fully fledged Brit with the exact same passport as you and I find you odious and disrespectful. If you don’t like Caymanian culture, go to Pakistan. You will be crawling back in a heartbeat. We are not comfortable with lies, get it?

      • Anonymous says:

        Ummm..leave WHERE immediately? You must be mistaking these Islands for the Chagos Islands. Same nasty attitude towards us “man Fridays”. Btw we are not a part of the UK so your whole premise fails.

  10. Anonymous says:

    My fellow Caymanians….our Constitution and/or laws need updating from time to time (just like everywhere else). This issue, like criminalizing the marijuana issue, needs updating. Civil Unions between two consenting adults need not be feared. Same thing goes for someone using a little weed.
    Let’s get the relevant laws updated and move on to other pressing concerns….there are many!

    • Just Commentin' says:

      Far out, mannn! Hey..brother, pass me a doob, and let’s watch Brokeback Mountain together. [Sorry, I could not resist.] I totally agree with you. But many Caymanians fear change so much I doubt that they change their underwear on a regular basis.

  11. Mr. Rogers says:

    Kenneth says gays are cool. Except driftwood gays. They don’t belong here. I do believe he may have secured at last Ozzie’s vote this morning. If you count mom, that makes a total of two so far.

  12. Anonymous says:

    1:50?
    The going up the mountain for Moses to receive the tablets of the law is a story separate from the time the image of the snake was lifted up in the wilderness. Please read your Bible. You are being very convoluted. Oh. Big word there. Sorry. You need to get your stories straight. Plus, “as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the son of man be lifted up” is Biblical writing to show that Jesus must die on a cross for our sins. It is really all true and I would rather stick to my faith and gain heaven than reject this gospel and risk losing eternal life. I accept Jesus as God come to save us from our human condition. Read St. John Chapter one.
    This is, however, a Caymanian Christian perspective and we are a Christian nation and not just cultural Christians. It’s up to each of us to accept or reject The Bible. Faith is a gift. Read and pray on things. You might be surprised when you seek that you truly find truth.

  13. Put it to a vote says:

    Hey, if I read the Bible correctly, it says that you must love your fellow man.
    Correct me if I’m wrong.
    What it did not say is that man must have sexual relationships with man.

    Again I say, let the people speak. Let them decide their own future, in their own country.
    Let there be a referendum vote on this issue.

    The current laws of this country were based on Christian Faith, Morals and Values. This was done way before Human Rights and all the other liberal stuff were done.

    It should be that this country decides, by the people, what is right for them or not.
    If this is to change, then so be it, but by the people’s will, not someone else’s.

    If you believe that it is right to force laws from other countries onto a nation that does not want them then you are no better than racists, fascists dictatorships. And that in itself is against the basis of Human Rights.

    Put it to a vote and live by that vote. That is democracy.

    For those who want a dictatorship, there are many othe countries that operate under this system and I am sure you would be welcomed.

  14. Anonymous says:

    Here, I’ve got an idea: Suppose we agree that he can’t actually have babies without having a womb (which is nobody’s fault, not even the Caymanians), but that he can have the right to have babies.”

    • Judean people's front says:

      Right to have babies? What’s the point? Where’s he going to keep them,in a box?
      Sounds like the only struggle is against reality?

  15. Anonymous says:

    I am not gay nor am I homophobic but I am Caymanian. What I think bothers most Caymanians particularly those that are Christians is that people from outside of our country come here as guests in our culture and try to force upon us the cultural ways of where they come from rather than accepting us and our values for what we are. you may not necessarily agree with them but you must and should accept them..

    There is no way that I as a Caymanian could go to the United States and demand that they make me a citizen of their country or even demand that they allow me to enter and stay beyond what my visa stays as the guy has done here. Similarly, I could not go there and demand that they allow me to bring and eat or rear turtles or other species of animals that are banned for consumption in that country. It is just respect. when you come to visit my house and I ask you not to wear your shoes indoors and that is custom in my family..are you going to to respect my request or are you going to try to force me to allow you to do it anyway..

    It is about respect people, not about Bible Thumping, bigotive remarks or Human Rights..If you don’t like it here or you don’t like our customs and culture there are many other places that would welcome you and I assume that would include the home from which you have left.

    • Anonymous says:

      Speak for yourself, not me – a 7th generation Caymanian who is married with children. My country is living in the dark ages and hiding behind religion as if that story book is license to hate.

    • Ron says:

      I agree. When visiting Rome, do as the Romans do. They want to fight for gay marriages yet they want to ban us from eating turtle? So wrong!

    • Just Commentin' says:

      Let’s consider your leading statement:
      “What I think bothers most Caymanians particularly those that are Christians is that people from outside of our country come here as guests in our culture and try to force upon us the cultural ways of where they come from rather than accepting us and our values for what we are…”

      Considering that the Cayman Islands is a British Territory, we are are subject to the European Convention on Human Rights and to the decrees of the Privy Council. As much as it irks some of the lesser-enlightened Caymanians, we are not a power unto ourselves, we are subject to the “outside” influence of the Mother Country. Clearly, the issue has little to do with the Cayman Islands being “forced” to accept the “cultural ways” of “outsiders” and all to do with whether or not Cayman and its people are going to comply with the rule of law. Considering that one of the parties to the battle is a British lawyer, he is not an “outsider” to the issue, he has every reason to expect that his human rights are not abrogated by contrary laws of a certain British Territory called the “Cayman Islands”.

      Moreover, and this puts the final nail in the coffin of your silly argument, it is the position of the Cayman Islands Human Rights Commission (HRC) that our government adopt legislation to recognize same-sex unions and ensure that these couples enjoy the same rights afforded to any other married couples under the law, including rights under the immigration laws. So, my misguided friend, it is not “guests” coming here to “force” us to accept a foreign lifestyle, the HRC is a local body created under the Cayman Islands Constitution Order 2009. As per the Constitutional guidelines, “The Commission’s primary responsibility shall be promoting understanding and observance of human rights in the Cayman Islands”. So we must conclude that the most compelling voice to recognise same-sex unions comes not from “guests” to these islands, but from a body formed under our very own Constitution. This body has advised that we start complying to the rule of laws to which we are subject.

      No, you might not be able to go to the USA and demand to illegally possess an endangered species, but you can go their and expect-yea, demand-that your human rights be respected.

      Heck, I reallyyyy like the pretty ladies (so I am very much in agreement with women who like ’em too), so I am not looking to get hooked up with one of my fishing buddies, but if I was so inclined I would like to know that my rights to do so would be protected too.

      In conclusion, to me it is about “respect”, too: respect for the rule of law and respect for human rights. What really bothers me as a Caymanian is that some Caymanians, even some so-called “Christian” Caymanians, are just rebels and anarchists who would flip a long finger at the idea of being subject to the rule of law. But you wouldn’t be one of those…would you?

    • Anonymous says:

      Apples and pears. This is about internationally accepted and long established Human Rights and Caymans obligations to accept them as part of the international community. It is precisely the lack of respect that so called Christian Caymanians fail to show for international law that makes Cayman look so ridiculous, along with the lack of respect for the people intended to be protected by that law. This is going to end badly for Cayman, so man up and take it on the chin

    • Seeing both sides says:

      Thanks for your comment and trying ton helppeople understand your perspective.

      But I honestly think you have misunderstood the intent of the LGBT push for equality under the law. I am not a lawyer – but what I understand to be the issue is the legal recognition of what two married people are I.e they are not looking for our religion to recognize that two people of the same sex can form a family unit with rights and obligations to each other but what they are asking is that our laws (which are not based on religious beliefs) do recognize that.

      I am both a Christian and a Caymanian and I absolutely support the civil right of gay people to form a legal marriage (not a religious sacrament).

      Furthermore – the assumption that this is a foreign or non caymanian issue is just wrong. I know many Caymanian homosexual people who I believe deserve the same right (under the law) as I have. I am sad that it has taken is so long to deal with the issue ourselves so now it may feel like our hand is being forced which is uncomfortable I admit.

    • Anonymous says:

      Well said i agree with you 100%.

    • Anonymous says:

      Absolutely ridiculous! What about the Caymanians that are LGBT? These people just want to be accepted and have the same right as heterosexuals. Many (born and bred Caymanians) leave Cayman just to have their basic human rights which is a shame to Cayman to be losing such great people.
      In this particular case… You damned right they not fitting in culturally, they are in a wholesome committed relationship, not going around cheating and creating illegitimate babies all over the damned place! Good for them!!

    • Anonymous says:

      However if the floor hadn’t been washed for a long time and there was animal hair all over and I had to come in to repair something for you would that still count. What if you invited me do do construction in your home. Some rules don’t make sense and sometimes it takes an outside look at things to help set them right.

    • Caymanian LGBT says:

      Don’t speak for Caymanians – speak for yourself.

      What about a Caymanian like me who is gay who deserves the right to have a recognised legal union in my home country? He isn’t only speaking for himself and expats – there are countless Caymanians that will benefit from a change in the law and deserve equal rights. You need to stop playing this as a foreigner “issue” and recognise that this is a Caymanian issue that must be addressed.

  16. Anonymous says:

    Let us all pray to The Lord Jehovah that men become more like men and women more like women for there is beauty in the differences in-planted on both genders.Composition of the Atom. The atom consists of a tiny nucleus surrounded by moving electrons. The nucleus contains protons, which have a positive charge equal in magnitude to the electron’s negative charge. The nucleus may also contain neutrons, which have virtually the same mass but no charge.Positive attracts negative and vice-versa the neutrons have no charge. They are just there. Think of our planet as an atom protons and electrons are women and men and neutrons those who have the gift of continence and not for that they are lesser happy. Mother Theresa was one.

    • Anonymous says:

      Mad as a box of frogs.

    • Just Commentin' says:

      Ok, let’s go with your analogy. But nuclear physics is not any more simple than human sexuality and certainly not as simple as your analogy would imply. For example what of the anti-electron, with a positive charge?. Or…the anti-proton! It has a negative charge. (You see where I could go with this argument?) Anti-protons are stable but short-lived since close contact with a proton will cause both particles to be annihilated in a burst of energy. Wowww! Sounds sexy to me!

      At one time, in the darker ages of science, the atomic model was as simple as you present it. But no more.

      This is kinda like saying that XY genetic makeup defines males, and XX females. At one time, way back when, it was taught that all men had 22 pairs of autosomes plus one X and one Y sex-determining chromosome, and it was taught that all women had the same 22 pairs of automsomes, plus two X chromosomes. Therefore, XY=male, XX=female.

      But again, nature did not turn out to be as simple as man once thought. So…what about XXY? XYY? XXXX? XXYY? XYYY? XXXYY? (Among just some of the variations in sex-determining chromosomal combinations).

      Now, what about: People born with both a penis and vagina? Or those with ovaries and testicles? What “particle” are they in your simple atomic model? Who can they marry? Maybe they can double their chances and marry either gender? Maybe marry both? Things get a little tricky when we try to force framing the issue into a strict binary model of “male” and “female”. Reality is a bit different. Sexual genetic makeup, and therefore gender determination and differentiation, are a bit more complex than protons and electrons. But, nice try.

      When you think about how nature, in some cases, disregards strict gender genetic and physical traits, why is it such a stretch to extend this to gender identity? Just wondering. Got an answer?

    • Anonymous says:

      Wot? Sportsfan, you lost me with the physics stuff. You sayin’ we’re nothing but atoms intercoursing (or not intercoursing) with each other? What the heck are you smokin?

    • Anonymous says:

      Can we have that in English?

  17. Anonymous says:

    So, according to some of these posts, “God” wrote the Bible through men, and these men wrote Leviticus which forms, tendentiously, the shaky Biblical basis for opposing gay marriage but then Jesus says Leviticus was all wrong and should not be followed. I am confused, how could Jesus wipe out the word of God, since those words came from God and if he could why are people now picking and choosing which bits of Leviticus apply? And which bits apply? I cursed my mother the other day, and I am worried about being put to death. Please help.

    • People's Front of Judea says:

      It’s not meant to be taken literally; it refers to all manufacturers of dairy products.

    • Anonymous says:

      You are such a silly boy. There is a huge difference between the spirit of the law and the letter of the law, except when it suits you of course.

      Remember, one day, you will get to rake God over your own coals. Good luck with that one.

    • Anonymous says:

      Here we go again. Jesus did not say that Leviticus was all wrong. The Levitical law comprised three elements: the moral law, the ceremonial law and the judicial/civil law. Jesus upheld the moral law which is eternal. You seem to be concerned about the judicial/civil law (punishments for crimes etc.) which was specific to Israel under the old covenant. But of course all of that is neither here nor there since the New Testament also tells you that homosexual behaviour is sinful. No need to pick out bits of Leviticus. Let me help you out: Romans 1:26–27; 1 Corinthians 6:9–10; 1 Timothy 1:9–10; and Jude 1:7. Capiche?

      • Diogenes says:

        So the entirety of the Bible is the word of God, but some parts (the later ones) supersede the earlier parts, and only the “moral” part of Leviticus survives the New Testament? So we can ignore parts of Leviticus? Which ones, because I don’t remember it being specifically marked as to moral, ceremonial and judicial sections – perhaps my version is not as well indexed as yours. Which other parts of the Old Testament are can be put aside, exactly (and on what authority?)

        • Anonymous says:

          Why don’t you go study some Christian theology and when you have gained an education we can then discuss.

          But of course the main point, which you are trying to evade, is that we need not refer to the OT at all for this purpose since it is also clearly prohibited in the NT. So all that fake confusion about which parts to apply goes out the window.

      • Judean people's front says:

        Ooh, he’s making it up as he goes along. He’ll be having a go at the birds next.

  18. 345 says:

    Will the AG have the insight and courage, to advise the LA, that this is a lost case (whatever Court level it ends up in – Grand, Appeals, Privy)?

    And that they should save the money, adapt the law, and simply explain the reality to the public, irrespective of anyone’s personal beliefs.

  19. Anonymous says:

    It really is amazing listening to the debate about marriage equality. The fact that so many feel gays and lesbians getting married affects them personally and goes against their personal religion really is quite incredible. The argument that a marriage between two people affects anyone besides those two people is just ridiculous. However, there they are– these “defenders” of marriage.

    But here’s the thing — when it comes down to the nuts and bolts of the ACTUAL institution of marriage. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with religion. I mean, of course, it can in your personal life, and you can have a wedding at a church and exchange your personal vows under whatever God you want if that suits your fancy, but in regards to what marriage actually is, religion isn’t required.

    • Anonymous says:

      You are insane. It is like saying Da Vinci had nothing to do with the Mona Lisa. Where do you people dredge up from? You are clutching at uneducated straws.

      • Anonymous says:

        There was marriage long before Christ was born. It is not a Christian invention. The church does not issue a marriage licence. The government does. You may choose to get married in a church and it may be called ” holy matrimony”, that is an individual choice. But marriage does not and never has been The invention of the /any church.

      • Anonymous says:

        Marriage predates Christianity (and probably all current religions) by many thousands of years – it’s all about property and inheritance rights

      • Anonymous says:

        A couple can be legally married without a church ceremony. But this same couple would not be legally married if they have only a church ceremony without the legal paperwork.

      • Fred says:

        Wasn’t Da Vinci gay?

        • Anonymous says:

          When Da Vinci was 24yrs. old, a jealous Bishop took him to The Ecclesiastical Court on a trumped up charge of sodomy. It was thrown out, but it would have meant the death penalty. Imagine what could have been lost to civilization due to Christian intolerance. Glad it’s so different now…er…

  20. michael says:

    god and everything to do with him is a figment of your imagination and has no place in a modern world let alone its laws.

    I believe in Buddhism lets switch to that one…..or hang on…..hmmmmm there are so many to choose from its hard to pick…….

    do you kinda get the point….

  21. Anonymous says:

    leonardo…the majority of people in cayman support you…as in the the most educated , intelligent and hardworking kind…..
    its unfortunate that this majority has no voting rights….yet……

    • No Soup for You says:

      You are right. Of course anyone with common sense would support the two. I mean, who exactly are they harming? Time to get over it folks. Nothing to see here.

  22. Anonymous says:

    LBGT Bashers and Bigots, before you get writing on here, why don’t you get to the article on abuse at home and the proposed new court for that, and comment or do something useful about that major issue for a lot of Caymanians, rather than waste your time and energy on this, which is never going to directly affect you in any way in your daily life, unless you want it to. You seriously need to get your priorities right and stop wasting time on that which does not matter.

  23. Anonymous says:

    This gay crusade is nothing more than a futile assault on God and His people. This is what God has to say on the matter and His opinion has never changed.

    Psalm 14 King James Version (KJV)

    14 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

    2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

    3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

    4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the Lord.

    5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.

    6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the Lord is his refuge.

    7 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the Lord bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.

    • Anonymous says:

      God did not write that, man did.

      • Anonymous says:

        And Man wishes to control you, not God. Believe if you wish, but believe in the right thing, not the man made thing.

        • King says:

          The bible is written by man inspired by God. Seek God not man!

          • Anonymous says:

            But man also wrote that. (these words I just wrote were both anointed and inspired by God…Prove me wrong if you like.)

          • Anonymous says:

            If God had written the Bible I am sure he would have made sure everyone would understand it and no one would have ever had to translate or explain what he meant to us common folk. I am not God but if I want my children to behave in a certain manor I do not have them go to an elder to figure out what I want them to do. Why would god make a book so important for everyone to follow so difficult to read and understand. It’s a mind game created by men because if god was love and wanted everyone to worship him and obey him he would have made his manual (the bible) more easily read and understood by all. It’s funny how when you speak to a Moslum they will sound so much like a Christian that some things are a mistery and and we just have to have faith. If the Bible was written by god there would be only one religion and only one god because we would know exactly who he was and what he wanted. The Isrealites had Idols according to the bible God made Moses put an image of a serpent on a stake and everyone who had fallen ill from having sex (big orgy while Moses was on the mountain) were to keep there eyes on the (Idol) or they would die. (does that sound like your God)

            • Anonymous says:

              Yep, that’s him!

              • Anonymous says:

                Oh and that was right after he had just made a commandment not to have idols. (I am so confused)

              • Anonymous says:

                Just in case you don’t believe me then Read Numbers 21:9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

                Kinda weirds you out huh

                • Anonymous says:

                  Consumption of moldy manna will do that to you…

                • Anonymous says:

                  Not really, it was prophetic. Look to the one raised on the cross and you will live. I thought that I would get really smart by learning more and more, but the truth is in the humility of the broken Nazarene on the piece of wood.

                  I have a degree, Mensa rating and all kinds of other “smartness”, but I count it all loss for Jesus Christ. I just hope that one person will find salvation through my pitiful existence.

                  • Anonymous says:

                    No doubt your were brought up in such belief system from before an age at which you could fairly perform a critical analysis of the premises upon which that belief system is based.

                  • Anonymous says:

                    If it was prophetic then why would it be mentioned in 2 Kings 18:4 He removed the high places, smashed the sacred stones and cut down the Asherah poles. He broke into pieces the bronze snake Moses had made, for up to that time the Israelites had been burning incense to it. (It was called Nehushtan.) Oh…I guess you bible study class missed that one.

            • Anonymous says:

              do you know Him?

          • Anonymous says:

            The men who wrote said they were inspired by “god”. Hardly strong corroboration for the entire basis of your belief system is it?

        • Anonymous says:

          Your God and mine are different. My is compassionate, loving and has made everyone on this hearth in his own likeness. What is yours?

          • Anonymous says:

            God is holy. He does not tolerate sin, yet He is merciful, compassionate and kind. He is willing to forgive if we are willing to confess. Alas, our own arrogance condemns us to an eternity in hell.
            For those flippant folk, eternity is FOREVER.

            • Anonymous says:

              Ah the old blackmail bible threat! Does your God allow you to threaten people? Mine teaches love.

              • Oh, Matron. says:

                My God does too. In fact my God is also gay, loves a bit of cock and talks like Kenneth Williams. He is fabulous.

    • michael says:

      I am not gay but you are a bible bashing brainwashed individual

    • willy blueham says:

      Didn’t Jesus choose to spend his time with harlots, tax collectors, the poor and the sinners that you judge so harshly.

      With this issue , shouldn’t you take Jesus instruction to “render into Ceasar what is Ceasars.” Seems to fit the situation.

      • Anonymous says:

        My guess is that Jesus would not be too keen on offshore tax havens harboring the wealthy from paying taxes to help the poor.

    • Judean people's front says:

      “For we are in the wilderness and there is nothing to eat master”
      “What about those Juniper bushes over there?”
      “His word has brought forth the juniper bushes with juniper berries”
      Brian. 30 AD. Just after tea time.

  24. Anonymous says:

    How convenient for Alden McLaughlin that he did not vote on the matter in the LA. So most of his fellow MLAs get thrown under the bus and he leads the country into “modernization”.
    Sad days ahead for Cayman. We need independence and the broken UK-based political system needs to be dismantled so despots like Bush & McLaughlin can never damage our traditional way of life again.
    We have a handful of bought-and-paid-for operatives polarizing and leading the country down undesirable paths.
    Full and immediate referendum makes these politicians afraid because they know they will be ousted by the silent and good majority.

    • SSM345 says:

      Independence? Are you out of your mind? Put down the pipe.

    • Anonymous says:

      What are you going to replace the so called broken down UK based system with? The U.S. system?? Even intelligent Americans think their system isn’t working anymore.

      • Anonymous says:

        You are the typical lemming. How about a suggestion?

      • Anonymous says:

        Not true. As Americans we reserve the right to complain about our system in an effort to make it better. Most of us would not replace it with another system though. The reason our system works for us is that, while democratic in nature, it’s not a pure democracy, which would be problematic in a heterogenous culture. The founders recognized the potential for a majority to unfairly persecute a minority. That’s why the courts have decided the gay marriage (and other civil rights issues) before the culture caught up.

        Very few systems would work as well as ours considering the diversity of our culture. It isn’t perfect but aside from tweaks we’re all pretty ok with our system.

  25. Anonymous says:

    another story which makes a mockery of the caymankind mantra……

    • Anonymous says:

      I can’t help but smile every time I see/hear that mantra. In order to be properly informed of their destination I think every prospective resident/tourist should be encouraged to listen to the public broadcast of the Assembly and their enlightened attitudes regarding those who comprise the bulk of their GDP and workforce before signing anything.

      If I had heard 10 minutes of that I would have made a very different decision before signing my contract. Yeah, yeah, save it…I’m going back to my country as soon as my contract is up, and my money is coming with me.

  26. Anonymous says:

    where is aldens response to the HRC?

  27. JTB says:

    I hope Dr Raznovich takes the opportunity to air Anthony Eden’s opinions to the wider world…

    • Anonymous says:

      Look, Anthony’s comments were (later) largely “picture language”, admittedly farmyard based, but not to be taken literally.

  28. Anonymous says:

    8 years of the far left liberal government is now seeing the rise of the likes of Trump. From Obamas far left European mode to this is stark….unlikely the UK will be in the EU after 2016…. See Camerons defeat on the matter last week. I think this side of the world and the world in general is going to swing much further right…..just saying liberals may have to wait another two decades to legalise everything ah boy politics

    • Anonymous says:

      Ironically I think the republicans will make Trump their leader, which will mean the democrats win and more liberalism on its way. Including on this view point issue.

    • Anonymous says:

      Far left! Are you serious?

      • Anonymous says:

        Indeed – hilarious. U.S. speak for anyone not rabidly far right Republican : “socialist” A (drinking) partner of mine was once working with an American student over the summer. The guy described himself as “a liberal”. My U.K. pal reckoned he was slightly left of Adolf Hitler and a slightly right of Maggie Thatcher! Let’s face it, U.S. politics is decidedly unusual.

  29. No Soup for You says:

    The Cayman Island government ensured that by taking on these two men that their names will some day appear in Heroes Square. In other words, they have picked a fight with the wrong guys. By not quietly granting them permission to reside in the Cayman Islands, government opened up a legal fight that they cannot and will not win. These two men have the law on their side and there is nothing that government can do about it. Unlike everything else that they sweep under the carpet, government decided to show what big boys they are – not going to work. Government 0 – Gay educated attorneys 1 Good luck men.

    • No Soup for You says:

      You not like my soup?

    • Anonymous says:

      I absolutely agree with your assessment of the situation and the MLA bluster offered in the LA was simply fuel for the fire. Legal battles with lawyers when they enjoy the law on their side is never wise.

    • guava jelly says:

      We will be dragged, kicking and screaming, into the 21st century. The only uncertainty remaining is how much money we will waste in the process.

  30. Think of all possibilities says:

    What has never been mentioned or considered in any article or comment regarding this matter is this: there is a real threat that discriminating against this committed, legally married couple will cause a “brain drain” in Cayman. When highly educated expats who invest their time, money and efforts in Cayman are treated like 2nd class citizens, they are going to leave (and understandably so). Gay or straight, these are the most desirable people we want to actually stay and make Cayman a better place for all. Why shoot ourselves in the foot over an archaic way of thinking? There is NO THREAT to anybody when a gay, married couple goes about their lives here.

    • Anonymous says:

      Not really the issue, more to do with immigration not having the tools to be able to allow the application within the curent legal framework.

    • Hetero Country. says:

      Don’t be foolish. The money that educated foreigners make here is too good for them to leave bc of two disgruntled homosexuals, who are unhappy because they’re having a hard time overlaying their respective countries’ laws here.

      You make it sound like every educated work permit holder is gay and feeling oppressed. Stop that nonsense.

      Marriage is clearly defined in our Constitution as being between one man and one woman. We are therefore not discriminating, we are following the Law; a Law that I am sure these two lawyers knew about when they took up residence here in 2011. They need to respect our country’s Law, and either comply, or leave. Simple.

      • Anonymous says:

        9.14 Then your constitution is out of date, illegal and about to be replaced. Wonder if we could get you replaced too, with a modern more realistic version, that affects no one apart from those wish it so.

      • Anonymous says:

        You could not have said this any better. When I first heard about this I had to say to myself are they really serious? They chose to come to Cayman, it was their responsibility to the due diligence. As lawyers this should come very natural to them if they are as “educated” as the writer claims. I guarantee that when doing their day to day work this goes without question.

        That said, they do not have the right to move to another person’s country and because they do not like their Constitution, sue them to change it. Would they like it if I went to their country and sued it for allowing gay marriages?

        This is not about gay or homosexuals, it is about respecting laws, laws that were decided on and signed by the people of that country. Are all of you agreeing with this also ok to have these two sue the DOE next to allow us to rape our oceans of conch and lobster too because they like them and want to have these delicacies on their table whenever they wish?? If you do not wish to abide by them, simply go back home or somewhere to which you have done your homework and can agree to live and abide by that country’s rules.

        This is our country, not yours! As the old saying goes, “if you don’t like it, go back to where you came from”. It is people like this that have created the ‘Cayman vs Expat’ syndrome. We are not above taking advice, we are above having it forced on us!

        • Anonymous says:

          Yeah because there are no LGBTQ Caymanians who might want to get married and live in their home country…

        • Anonymous says:

          Oh dear 12.27, where were you when God gave out the brains and tolerance? Law cases were what actually made most countries adopt the right legislation. Yours is the most inept tirade I have seen, and is a barely controlled rant at what you don’t or cannot understand, for reasons of my first sentence. How would you like it if you came to my country and got told you couldn’t come in because you posted LBGT hate letters on CNS? That legislation exists too, at least in Europe. Soon come here too Bobo.

    • Anonymous says:

      It doesn’t matter whether or not these expats are gay or gay sympathizers. If the country seems too backwards, they will still come to Cayman, but with no intention of setting roots. It will just be a 2 or 4yr. stop in their career paths. If anything, crime will be more of a deterrent.

  31. Anonymous says:

    This isn’t the place for this honestly.. My advice move somewhere that has gays rights it will be better for you guys! Best wishes

  32. Pope Frank says:

    Oh thank heavens. The posters are not happy unless they are angry.

    Love to all and a little piece for everyone……

  33. Fred the Piemaker says:

    “Dr Raznovich, who is also a lawyer and legal academic, has been invited to the International Bar Association (IBA) annual conference in Vienna to present the details of the case and its legal implications”

    There goes keeping it local. Here comes a worldwide *&^%strm

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